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Qaz
09-28-2006, 04:09 PM
I have spoken to people that say the AR series of 223 rifles are accurate out to 1000yds. But when questioned about a standard 20-24 inch barrel in a bolt action, I am told that you should not expect much over 400yds. Besides the twist of the barrel and I have seen bolt actions that could be had in a fast twist also, what is the difference between the two rifles that make the AR so accurate?

Qaz

sicero
09-28-2006, 04:23 PM
My first guess is BS factor. Or not based in fact. Kenny

Qaz
09-28-2006, 05:44 PM
I thought the same thing, except that I know a couple of guys that routinely hit groundhogs at between 600-800yds with a nothing special AR rifle. Do they usually have match grade barrels from the factory, are the tolerences in production and assembly held tighter than the over the counter rifle? They both say they are better built, as well as a custom built rifle. Some thing just doesn't seem right.

Qaz

Mulerider
09-28-2006, 05:48 PM
AR's were the first 223's in wide use with twists in the 6.5-9 twist range, allowing for bullet use not applicable to the everyday bolt action 223 (1:12?).

Many bolt gun now use the 1:9 twist (some even 1:8), from the factory.
The 75-80gr pills are what the long range guys are using: Sierra even offers a 90gr Matchking, requiring at least the 6.5:1 twist.

No magic in the AR platform, just the right components being used.

Mulerider
09-28-2006, 06:46 PM
I thought the same thing, except that I know a couple of guys that routinely hit groundhogs at between 600-800yds with a nothing special AR rifle. Do they usually have match grade barrels from the factory, are the tolerences in production and assembly held tighter than the over the counter rifle? They both say they are better built, as well as a custom built rifle. Some thing just doesn't seem right.

Qaz

Qaz: IMO, skills at reading the wind and adjusting for bullet drop at those ranges would influence the hits more than launch platform.
AR's can be extremely accurate (my Colt was my most accurate rifle till I bought a Cooper...), but extreme long range shooting adds so many other variables.
223's can shine at known long distances (HighPower competition), but field work at 600+ yds (even less) would have me scratchin' on how much drift and drop to account for (lots!).

Ackman
09-28-2006, 08:09 PM
I have spoken to people that say the AR series of 223 rifles are accurate out to 1000yds. But when questioned about a standard 20-24 inch barrel in a bolt action, I am told that you should not expect much over 400yds. Besides the twist of the barrel and I have seen bolt actions that could be had in a fast twist also, what is the difference between the two rifles that make the AR so accurate?

Qaz

AR's can be real accurate, and bolt guns are more accurate. It's really about who's doing the saying, and context. Target shooters think of guns in terms of target shooting and are clueless about varmint shooting unless they actually do it. So the 1000yd accuracy thing.....those guys are shooting vertical targets. Anything at 1,000yds is tough to hit, but vertical paper targets are still a whole lot bigger and easier to than small things crawling on the ground. They use long heavy match bullets designed to buck wind and punch a hole in paper. This requires a fast twist barrel. The .223 case isn't real big and will only push heavy bullets so fast, which is relatively slow, but that doesn't matter when you're just punching holes in paper. Shooting small things on the ground is different and don't want just a hole, you want something to happen. That requires expansion which in a .223 means lighter bullets designed not to just punch a hole but to blow up. This also means velocity. But those light bullets are more wind sensitive and for varmints with a .223 they're pretty maxed out at 400yds. That's fine, because varmint shooting and just punching holes isn't much fun, and out past 400 a bullet of any weight from a .223 doesn't do much to a furry target on the ground. So it's apples and oranges. You can put any twist barrel on any gun. AR's all seem to come with fast 7"-9" twist barrels. Bolt guns come with all different twists depending on who made it. My .223's mostly have 14" twist and are fed mostly 50's. For varmint-performance at .223 varmint-shooting range, they work fine. For more distance, there are bigger cartridges that work better.

Anyway, that's the difference. Two points of reference.

georgeld
09-30-2006, 06:28 AM
I've shot AT a lot of p/dog's out at 600yds and some quite a bit further. Now and then even hit one. But, the misses far outnumber the hits. On a less than 10mph day after I've been shooting enough to be in the groove well. They are in much danger at 400yds.
Do need to do a lot more shooting than I have been the last five years though. 250's now are hard for me to hit.

This is with a 1:14" and 55 or 40gr.
When it comes to 1000 yd shooting I've done so little of it, don't know for sure what it looks like except I was told that's how far the targets are. Nope, didn't hit 'em either. Even with an '06. But, ten shots is nothing for practice at such things for the first time.

It take's enough bullet weight to carry the velocity that far to keep them stable is what I've been told. That's why they go with the heavier bullets which weight alone requires faster twist to get them to spinning enough.

It's amazing they can hit anything that far after looking at how small those 3 foot ten rings are on a ten foot sheet of paper. I'd never be able to shoot a match with those guys. Even if I could see 'em, I'd be shooting at the wrong targets anyway. That's why I stick with the p'dogs'. A hit's obvious.

Something else too, on varmints you're asking for a 2" target area for a decently quick kill. Not many of those guys make a group less than 10". Sure, some do, but, check the targets from a match and see how many are less than 10".

I've got a contact that judge's and shoots the long ranges at Perry every year. IF you'd like to learn more, e/m me and I'll provide his e/m. He'd be more than happy to explain it to you.