the ole bullet making thread

[Stephen Perry]

I have 15 years time in bullet making and lots of reference material that I will share with those getting started into bullet making. My experience and connections in bullet making along with the fine bullet makers on Small Caliber will make this topic worth coming back to.

Let's start with bullet making equipment - presses and dies and all the small stuff that makes bullet making desireable and more productive. This is an open Forum, worldwide. Let's get started.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Eddie Harren]

The "chum" is in the water!!

[Stephen Perry]

The last bullet making thread I helped write started out with 10 negative comments about bullet making before Gerry M rescued it and then allot of learning about bullet making began. Your comment Eddie is welcomed. I don't write this stuff for myself but eventually guys like Al Nyhus join in and a humm settles down on Small Caliber while real practical knowledge sets in. Bring on the bullet makers.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Mntngoat]

I know a little about bullet making Well just enough to be dangerous. But do know there no voodoo involved, and thats its extremely satisfying to see bullets you make shoot well, but its also extremely monotonous. I should have listened to clint starke when it came to bullet making.


ML

[Stephen Perry]

For bullet making my equipment:

2 Rock Chucker Presses
1 A2 Press
Rorschach 22 cal Carbide Dies Set of 3
Simonson 6 mm Carbide Dies Set of 3
Wendell Croye Trays
CH core cutter

Like to hear what equipment you guys use.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Stephen Perry]

After you select your bullet making equipment you need a work place including basic tools.

Workspace
You know better than anybody how much space you have to give to bullet making. I have a 500 sq ft garage just enough room to have my bullet making cube in an open space. This allows me to mount 3 RCBS presses complete with modified rams to hold bullet making punches and each press has an ejector rack needed to operate the dies. I use 3 sides of my cubes to mount 3 presses. I have a side left for my Star loader and 2 lube sizers. I also have 2 core cutters mounted on opposite sides of my cube. My cube is made of 3/4 in plywood with 1 1/2" of plywood on the front. I mounted my Point-up press on this front section where most of the pressure comes in the final bullet making operation. Inside my cube I store my jackets, cases of jackets, white vinegar, rubbing alcohol, anhydrous lanolin, TSP, vaseline, bullet trays, jacket/lube tumbling jars, bullet making dies, core and jacket cleaning pans, plastic boxes, and small stuff.

Tools and Stuff
First let me say this for bullet making you need dedicated tools. These are tools that never leave your work area. Not many tools. Open and box end wrenches, screw drivers, dental picks, spray cleaners/silicone, bowls for temporary holding jackets and cores, and paper towels.

Lighting and Chairs
Good lighting is necessary to see what your doing and keep things easy on your eyes, important while making bullets you will spend lots of time at the bench. I have 3 stations and 3 chairs. I move from station to station quickly and keep my concentration on making bullets not moving chairs.

Cleanliness
Cleanliness is always discussed in making bullets. Clean up regularly. Wipe your tables clean. Keep food and drink away from your work area. Lastly take a break when needed.

This is an overview of my operation, lets hear your's.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Mntngoat]

Lee Cast press for squirting
B & M Clone horizontal press
George Ulrich 20 caliber carbide dies
David Deutsch 6mm Carbide dies
Jerrill Mattingly bullet trays


ML

[Stephen Perry]

ML
I like your equipment list, unique and ingenious. Converted LEE presses are a good way to go. Other presses like the Redding Boss, Lyman Orange Crush, old CH, the big one, Pacific, the big one, and even a big Herters can be converted to bullet making presses. Bullet making presses need to have a modification to the rams, this allows the stationary bullet punches to be held in the ram. An ejection rack needs to be installed to operate the bullet making dies for example the core making die exerts massive pressure to take a raw core and swage it into a finished core, on a RCBS Rockchucker press like mine this is where I use the round ball on the handle to help with the great linkage the press has and I take a raw lead core bleed off 3 grns of lead and come up a near perfect core each time I work the handle, nothing is perfect. My A2 press and my 2 Rockchucker presses are down stroke presses. this along with the great linkage on RCBS presses allows maximum force with minimul effort on the bullet makers part thus a thousand cores can be squirted in say an hour and a half. I know from my original bullet making Thread that if George Ulrich is involved in your equipment everything is top cabin. My A2 press is a Bob White conversion. My other 2 RCBS Rockchucker presses were highly scrutinized by my bullet making mentor before he sent them my way.

Like the fact you are using bullet trays, new bullet makers when they can afford them need bullet trays. Then the phrase referring to bullet making as slower than watching paint dry on the wall goes out the door. I mentioned I have Wendell Croye bullet trays, I can stuff 1400 jackets/cores into my trays in about 20 minutes, I have 7 trays 200 size. You sound like a happy camper with your bullet making gear ML, help spread the word that $20-35 bullets don't have to be a prison sentence, be smart buy once never cry again at the retail store for buying bullets.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Mntngoat]

I agree Now if I could only get Charlie Hood to make 20 caliber cores. I have about 5 lbs of cores left I squirted but when they are gone I'm not looking forward to making them again. Not included labor I'm into it for under $10/ box.


ML

[mauritz45]

i have alot of interest in making bullets, and realizing that the dies are probably your biggest investment, do you buy them from the mfg themselves, or is there another source out there?
has there been any experimenting ( or reason to try) using a progressive press?
cam

[Stephen Perry]

When I started making bullets about 15 years ago I had 1 RCBS Rockchucker Press and no bullet trays. I started with my Simonson 6mm dies and 1 punch for each die. I felt like back then that I had to do all the steps the same day to make good bullets. Cleaning wire, cutting raw cores, lubricating cores, swaging cores, cleaning cores, drying cores, changing dies 3 times and punches, and adjusting my ejector rack for each die change. For core seating, measuring jacket/core seated below lead line and making any needed die adjustment to get jacket/core to measure where I wanted, for pointing up bullets weighing and final measurement of finished bullets. A whole lot of work for 1 day. I use to do this routine to make benchrest bullets until I set up 2 more RCBS Presses and bought my bullet boards.

Now sanity has moved into my bullet making routine. I make bullets in a 4 day schedule.

Day 1
I clean up my area. Then I get my lead wire together by deciding which roll I will pull off of. I like to make a minimum of 600 bullets, this way I stuff cores into jackets using my bullet boards, 200 per board. I cut enough lengths of wire to make at least 600 rough cores, some extras are no big deal I use them too. I use metal dykes to cut the lengths, I pull the lengths off using one side of my cube as a rough measurement for individual wire length, my cube has 30" sides. No need to be exact in pull lengths. Next I roll the wire on a bench/table to get the lengths reasonably straight, the straightening of wire lengths makes cutting rough core easier and cuts square ends. Next I spray a paper towel with light silicone spray and pull each wire length through the silicone, several towels are used. What this silicone spray does is clean the wire and leaves a light coating on the core lengths. Then I cut the cores to a pre-determined length dumping them into empty J4 buckets for later core forming, I use a couple paper towels inside the buckets to keep the cores from bouncing. I like to cut cores so they are 3 grns. heavier than the finished weight. I determine finished core weight by weighing several jackets and making cores to add up to the finished bullet weight desired. I form cores the second day.

Day 2
For the second day I start by cleaning my area again. Second day I make cores and clean cores. I have previously sprayed raw cores with silicone, silicone keeps the dry cores from tightening up in my core die. The silicone comes off in the next core cleaning operation. I use my No.1 RCBS Rockchucker Press with my core making die and core punch in place to form cores. The core making operation on the press goes quick. I weigh finished cores randomly to insure that I stay within my +/- .1 grn weight I desire. After I'm happy with my core swaging operation I place all my cores in a funnel sieve. Next I slosh my finished cores with a half bottle rubbing alcohol, small bottle, shaking the sieve this cleans any unwanted grease, grime, lead particles, and silicone spray from my lot of finished cores. Then after letting the sieve drain and being careful to remove the lead particles I transfer the cores to a extra hot kitchen pan of water with a couple good sloshes of white vinegar added and blended. Leave cores sit in pan 15-20 minutes stirring several times. The vinegar cleans more and begins the etching process on the cores which is highly desired among most bullet makers. After 15-20 minutes of vinegar/water place cores back in the collander and run water on cores in collander for at least 10 minutes. The water rinse slows the etching operation to nothing, if not stopped etching will eat some core, bad news. Next get a bath towel lay cores out and let them dry. Either outside on a sunny day or inside in a safe room, in the safe room after laying cores out on the towel fold the towel over to cover cores in case you have a dog or cat that might roam over your cores. One point here lots of bullet makers boil their cores using some kind of detergent or TSP, this is a prefered way among some but not all bullet makers, not me I prefer my method acceptable in some eyes, I will try TSP later.

Day 3
Day 3 is the core seating operation. First do a clean-up operation. By clean-up I mean keep everything organized not sweeping, less dust in the air created by sweeping the better. Dust in the air can settle in your bullet making operation and possibly end up inside your dies. A good method would be after every day of bullet making have a bag to cover each press this keeps you presses clean and your dies from collecting unwanted debris.

Core seating is the most discussed operation discussed among new bullet makers, some don't know if they doing the operation correctly. I agree.
For new bullet makers I would be making small lots of 50 to start with. Use a small lube jar for making small lots of bullets. I use a 16 oz jar, a mayonaise jar works fine. I still use mine for testing small lots of jackets during core seating and point up die checking and adjustment, a new lot of jackets might prompt making small lots. Small swipes of lube inside the jar and inside the cap to make small lots. I will get into lubing large quanities of jackets later.

Now that you have your small lot of jackets drop your finished cores into the jackets and begin to seat the cores with your core seating die and appropriate core seating punch. You will spend most of your die setting time with your core seating die. The appropriate punch is carte blanche in setting the core seating die. Don't be cheap here. Buy a 1/10 mic and practice with it, you will use your mic for several bullet making operations and possibly in some of your other handloading and gun smithing operatioms. Not suppossed to pick sides here but a Mitutoyo mic would be my choice, I have all the others. Different ideas on core seating. I pick a punch among the several I have that when the core is seated inside the jacket from a visual inspection inside the core seated jacket leaves a minute crater line at the core top all the way around evenly. One of the best bullet makers also subscribes to my description of proper core seating method and writes about it, I learned from him. The reasoning here is that because a jacket tapers from mouth to base inside enough core seating pressure has to be applied on the top of the core to completely fill the jacket void where the lead meets the jacket. Filling the void means at the bottom of the jacket leaving no air pockets anywhere and the core will expand to remove the air on the sides as well. A perfectly seated core will stay in place during the bullets flight. For benchrest bullets core stability is paramount, the core must not move inside the jacket during the trajectory of the bullets as they seek to stabilize early in the bullets flight. For hunting bullets we have all seen good bullets maintaining their cores in a good kill. The reason we don't see the effect of bad bullets on game is because there was no kill as they missed their mark.

Once the core seating die has an intial setting using your 50 samples mic some jackets with core seated and record measurements. The proper way to set up a core seating die is to expand the jacket/core in the core seating die to the max the die will take without it popping/rupturing the die, go slow here as replacing a popped die will hurt your wallet and might give you bad dreams for a long time. The punch stays in place as pressure is applied on top of the core as you screw the die in the punch stays in place and the more pressure by screw the die on top of the punch expands the core to fill the jacket and the jacket takes on the dimension of the inside of the core seating die. Ultimate pressure and beyond trys to bulge the die if ultimate pressure is exceeded die failure/rupture can occur, read a chapter on Strenghts of Materials from an engineering manual if you seek more knowledge.

Once pleased with your core seating set-up take your bucket of jackets and apportion out several hundred, I like to go with 600 at a time and have at it. I do core seating 1 day only and do as many as I can stand to make. Don't go beyond fatigue in your bullet making operation, your mind has to be clear and your muscles need to be focused to feel each core seating properly, weed out the culls when core seating as you feel them inside the die, culls come from bad technique operating the press handles, can happen in core making, core seating, or pointing up. Every bullet should be made so as to have the possibility of performing like it's cousins, give each bullet that chance to perform the same.

Let me stop here and talk jackets for a minute. Most bu;;et makers use J4/Berger jackets. I make benchrest bullets, they work fine alsoas Varmint bullets and for Range shooting. I started like most buying 1 bucket of jackets. Berger's come 2600 a bucket in 22 cal and 1800 in 6mm. My 22 cal jackets are .705 my 6mm jackets are .825. My 22 cal jackets will make 52-55 grn bullets maybe lighter maybe heavier but my range is what I stated. My 6mm jackets make 66-70 grn bullets. I use my bullets mainly for my 22 & 6 PPC benchrest guns. I have shot my 6mm bullets at 600M silohuette and done well. I also have benchrest barrels for .222, 6x47 Rem., 6 BR short, and 6x47 Lapua. Haven't checked current prices on jackets lately but they are the costly part of the bullet. I bought 50,000 of 6mm and 25,000 of 22 jackets along with several bullet gurus a time back. Once you feel comfortable with your operation buy large lots of jackets. This way once you set your core seating die and your point-up die you will be good to go for that lot of jackets, most of my jackets are 1's (.0001 run-out). This becomes very important.

Day 4
Day 4 on point-up, lube, and packaging bullets is in the Thread titled Day 4.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[MIBULLETS]

I have seen reference to these bullet boards and I understand how they work, but where can I get them?

My process for making bullets is similar to Stephen Perry's, but I use one Corbin S press and dies set. I use acetone for cleaning cores and do not etch them. It takes forever to put cores into jackets though. That's why I'm interested in hearing more about the bullet boards.

[Stephen Perry]

The one's I hear about making bullet boards are Good Grouper on BRC, Speedy Gonzalez, Wendell Coye's son, probably others. Not hard to make if you have a mill some make them out of acetate some out of aluminum. Call Bob White he's a long time bullet maker along with Lester Bruno, Charley Hood, and Niemi.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[rickiesrevenge]

How much is the tooling that is needed to get started swaging bullets?

[Mntngoat]

Cam I think you are better off with a dedicated press for each of the three operations. A Lee Cast or Rockchucker is cheap in comparison and that way you don't have to keep pulling dies from the press.

ML

[MIBULLETS]

The one's I hear about making bullet boards are Good Grouper on BRC, Speedy Gonzalez, Wendell Croye's son, probably others. Not hard to make if you have a mill some make them out of acetate some out of aluminum. Call Bob White he's a long time bullet maker along with Lester Bruno, Charley Hood, and Nemi.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Do you have any contact info for any of these guys?

Thanks,
Dan

[Eddie Harren]

JERRELMM@aol.com

[Al Nyhus]

Thanks, Eddie. -Al

[Stephen Perry]

Al, now if we can get Gerry M and George Ulrich on this Thread we can get the old team back from last years bullet making Thread. New guys over here some have already displayed good knowledge on bullet making. My aim on Small Caliber is to bring a concise approach to bullet making on an open forum that goes worldwide that 1st and 2nd year bullet makers can read like a cook book and produce bullets for their needs. You are one the newer bullet makers, I think now 3 years for you, that uses Blackmon gear, more affordable for most and you have tweeked your bullet making operation to match your gear. Welcome Al.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Stephen Perry]

Bullet making dies are obtained several ways. The current manufacturers that I know are George Ulrich, Bill Niemi, Detsch, Corbin, Blackmon, and Speedy Gonzalez. There are other die makers out there I just know these.

Allot of good bullet making equipment can be found in estate sales or from long term bullet makers that are selling off some of their stock. Before buying any bullet making gear find a bullet maker that will be willing to mentor you in getting you set up in bullet making. A forum like Small Caliber is a good place to get ideas on starting and continuing in bullet making,

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Kiwishooter]

Stephen, I am following this thread with interest.

Due to the lack of bullet makers in New Zealand, and it getting increasingly harder to get benchrest quality bullets out of the US i have bought a set of dies off David Detsch, but still need some other bits like core cutter, lead wire, jackets and another press.
I ordered a press from George Ulrich but that was about 3 years ago, he seems too busy to make one for me.
A set of bullet boards will be very handy, so now I have an email contact will try and order some.
I followed your previous thread and managed to keep a copy of some of it, thanks for starting this thread...........Kiwi

[Kiwishooter]

Posted for Stephen Perry

the ole bullet making thread Day 4

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Day 4
Day 4 is usually a bullet Christmas present for most bullet makers. The commercial bullet makers can now make some money on their investment of time and equipment. When my lot of bullets is completed the small bullet makers like myself gets to clean guns or get aquanted with their family again. During bullet making time I take no phone calls and don't deal with my family. Bullet making is relatively simple if you follow each step.

I like all the steps in bullet making but Day 4 point-up day for me gives me a good feeling in my bullet making soul. I don't make bullets for profit I don't sell any I like to make bullets because I wanted to do something in the shooting sport that I had control over. Being a Shoot Director at San Gabriel Valley Benchrest for 13 years was fine but the program had control of me the whole time. Bullet making is more a personal thing that one can do on their own schedule. One thing though finish what you start in bullet making, you have a sizeable investment in equipment and time invested.

Now that I know I have done all the steps correct in my bullet making and when the point-up day is completed that I will have bullets that give me a chance to compete with my competitors hopefully on an equal basis, I hope. Watching Bronco Billy again as I write this what a hoot, not making bullets. Haven't always felt that way about my bullet making when I started, I was mostly in the top 5 at my SW Regioin Shoots using Berger, Watson and Gentner bullets - in the day. Galled me shooting bullets I had made and see my once low 2 aggs at 200 go to 3's and 4's but I persisted, I had an investment here. My bullet making Mentor told me his initial bullet making experience. He says that when he started making bullets that he vowed he would never shoot anybody elses bullets again, he has kept that pledge. Sure he struggled in his shooting while he was refining his bullet making technique but not for long. My bullet making Mentor is a 20+ HoF member and still going strong.

Getting back to Day 4. Several things need to be done before the final pointing-up of bullets and packaging. During Day 3 we established measurements on the seated bullet core below the lead line but not at the pressure ring. Now is where your bulletmaking pays off. If you followed all the bulllet making steps and adjusted your point-up die your ready to start the finishing something worthwhile, your bullets. At $250 per thousand for benchrest bullets your savings of making your own bullets should in 4-5 years of bullet making should pay for your bullet making investment.

My first bit of bullet making knowledge came after talking with my 1977 benchrest bullet maker. Tom Metzger shared with me that he burned 75 bullets each time before point-up session, layed them aside calling them Varmint bullets. His reasoning was that it takes use to warm up the die before he started pointing up benchrest bullets, his bullets were always in demand.

Before I get ahead of myself let me talk about lube. Many opinions here most good. What is important here is using a lube that will spread evenly when rolled/tumbled/shaken or whatever way applied. The lube is the medium between the die and the cored jacket so that during the hydraulic action of turning a cylinder/jacket into a guided missle/bullet that now has an ogive, measured shaft, and a pressure ring that seals the bullet in the case neck with the appropriate neck tension. You as the bullet maker have control over all these parameters when you make your own bullets. My lube also from another bullet Mentor is a mix: 3 parts anhydrous lanolin 1 part vaseline. Heat the mix and store for later use. I store my lube in film containers. Lube goes a long way, 10-12 oz of lube generally lasts me 10 years. Applying lube to jackets has several ways that get the job done. Some use a tumbler with a measured amount of lube, some use an old t-shirt and roll the jackets until they get tired. I use a 2 gallon mason jar measure my lube and rub lube on all 4 sides and inside the lid. Then I go to my kid and let her shake the jar until she gets tired, 8-10 minutes. Lastly I roll jackets still inside the jar trying to evenly spread the lube around. Lube and it's application is what determines the final dimensions, remember lube/hydraulic pressure and heat are the mediums that move the jacket metal to take the shape of the inside of the die thus the shank measrement and the ogive. The pressure ring is not formed inside the die but forces inside the die when released from die form the .0003-.0004 difference in measurment at the base of the bullet, boat-tail bullets have no pressure ring as the action of forming the boat-tail takes the pressure away.

Before the point-up session begins clean up again, oorganize your stuff put things away clear your area,. I don't want anything slowing down my point-up operation. I take no phone calls, lock my garage door, keep my family away. Pointing-up bullets will make or break all your good work so far. Take bullet making serious. I point-up as fast as I can go without losing control. Want to keep that die warm as I go. Want my pressure rings to measure the same all the way through. Like to see my 6 bullets measure .2430 on the shank and .2434 on the pressure ring. My 22 bullets go .2240 on the shank and .2243 on the pressure ring. Take a short break when fatigue starts to set in. Use this time to measure some bullets. Weighing of bullets comes last. Finish off your lot of bullets, personal preference I leave the lube on the bullets after the point-up.

Storing bullets for later use. I use either old 100 pk bullet boxes but mostly the boxes I buy come from the 99 cent store. I use 200,300, and bulk boxes. Going to a weekend shoot I take two 300 pks this allows me to give away a few bullets to new shooters who want to compare them to the Sierra, Speer, Nosler or what they inherited. I don't sell bullets so if they ask me I will send them to whoever has some benchrest bullets for sale.

That's about it. Lots more to to discuss got nothing but time here to share. General problems that occur during bullet making can be dealt with when they come up. Let some of the other fine bullet makers on Small Caliber share also. Done.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Stephen Perry]

nt

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[algunjunkie]

All of my swaging gear is from Dav Corbin.

s-press and a 224 set of dies

One press so that part sucks big time.

I cast my cores instead of using lead wire, simply because I have several hundreds of pounds of wheel weight that I add pure lead too to help soften it up a bit.

I have just started lubing the cores by placing them in a mason jar with lube and shaking it around for a few minutes. I must admit that it is a better method that lubing each one separately which is how I use to do it.

I then swage cores for days and put them in plastic jars with the weight listed on it. Then like you, I core seat one day and then point up one day.

I had planned on buying additional press but since they are now $600 each, I am now looking for a new set up.

[Stephen Perry]

Sounds like you're going in the right direction. As far as another bullet making press that shouldn't cost you $600. Not sure if Corbin dies need to have a Corbin press.

For $600 you can buy 3 RCBS Rockchucker presses and if you have the tools you can make your ejector system for each press and modify the rams for bullet making.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Mntngoat]

The ejector system is so simple its not even funny. Dan Lilja was selling ejection frames recently not sure if he still has them. the core cutter can be had from Corbin or better yet just buy cores already squirted from Charlie hood.

ML

[algunjunkie]

Unfortunatley, Corbin dies are for Corbin presses. I know, but at the time I didn't know any better. I have contacted other die makers since then and found out the error of my thinking. Right now I am talking to Dr. Blackmon about his gear and can get the whole die set, press and boatail die for the round that I am after for price of a single Corbin press.

[Stephen Perry]

al

Getting back to your decision to go with the Blackmon equipment. Don't have any Blackmon myself but mostly positive reports from Al Nyhus on his Blackmon presses and dies, he'll come on this Thread and talk to you about Blackmon gear. Getter dun.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[algunjunkie]

al
Sorry if I come across as a damn elitist belonging to an Angeles Range clique, all this because I mentioned several times that I am a benchrest shooter, and goad people at the range to prove it when they tell new shooters that their factory Savage rifles will shoot all their shots into the same hole all day long at 300 yd. Sorry to the Forum ahead of time if I discount such miracle claims, yeah right.

Getting back to your decision to go with the Blackmon equipment. Don't have any Blackmon myself but mostly positive reports from Al Nyhaus on his Blackmon presses and dies, he'll come on this Thread and talk to you about Blackmon gear. Getter dun.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Never came across that way to me. I am glad that someone is willing to help others learn the art of swaging. When I started 6 years ago it was trail and error.

Al Nyhaus's review on another forum showing a .074 inch group with a 118 grain bullet made from Dr. Blackmon's dies was indeed impressive and finally swayed me to purchase the die set. Saying that I fully understand that he is an accomplished shooter and I can not expect the same results, but I am going to try.

[Stephen Perry]

Al Nyhus is a rifleman who became a bullet maker. We have all benefited from watching and learning as Al chose his Blackmon equipment and consulted with his bullet making Mentor to come up with a system that allows him to compete and hunt with his 30 cal bullets. Now Al is a Mentor to others that want to compete with bullets they produce in their own time frame. Al was a regular contributor in the original bullet making Thread I constructed on another Forum, lasted some 4 months 380 Posts over 50,000 readers.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Al Nyhus]

Thanks for the kind words.

I'm very fortunate to have Randy Robinett as a good pal, bullet making mentor and sometimes traveling companion. His help was key to getting me on the right track making bullets. I've since mentored a couple of other beginning bullet makers and they've had good success.

Payin' it forward...and remembering who 'brung 'ya...is always a good thing. :) -Al

[Stephen Perry]

Could you share with the guys your Blackmon bullet making setup {photos} and talk some about 30 cal bullet making also what your Mentor has meant to you in bullet making.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Al Nyhus]

Here's a few pics of my Blackmon setup:

Sticks of core wire ready to cut:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/7.jpg

Cutting cores:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/4-1.jpg

Seating cores:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/b5.jpg

1,000 jackets with cores seated:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/j1.jpg

[Al Nyhus]

Getting ready to point, warming up the die:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/2-7.jpg

1,000 117's, ready for final cleaning:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/5-5.jpg

Careful notes on jacket weights, lube amounts, and core seating is imperitive:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/4-5.jpg

Test your work:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/074.jpg

[Al Nyhus]

And test 'em at 200 yds. Perfect, once in a lifetime conditions:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/B1s5200.jpg

Remember to thank your mentor(s): Randy 'R.G.' Robinett, center. :) Any success I've had making bullets is solely due to Randy's teaching and Larry Blackmon's excellent dies. To the lt. is Jim Angle and on the rt. is Roland Potter. National Champions, all.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/champs.jpg

[Al Nyhus]

And thank your gunsmith for the excellent work. Stan Ware...quite simply, 'The Man'.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/stan.jpg

Order more components:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/jacketsbuckets.jpg

Rolls of core wire made to specific % of antimony content:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/wire.jpg

Organized, tidy and clean is a must.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/b1-1.jpg

My two cents on it..... -Al

[Stephen Perry]

Now we need George over here, and any of the good guys from our original bullet making Thread. Good thing about Small Caliber I doubt 'the ole bullet making thread' will disappear over night like it did on the other Forum. Welcome Al and these fine bullet makers over here will enjoy you and your bullet making techniques.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Kiwishooter]

Al what make of press is the one in your photos?? Thanks...... Kiwi

[algunjunkie]

Now I have questions that I just have to ask, curious minds want to know.

1. I didn't see where you swaged cores for uniformity and the groups you are shooting are phenomenal. Did you cut them that precise or does it really matter?

2. What is the purpose of heating up the point forming die before pointing? I have never heard anyone ever mention it.

3. How hot did you get it? warm to touch?


Thanks in advance.

[Al Nyhus]

The press is the Mighty Mite sold by Larry Blackmon.

Core squirt die being set up:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/2-3.jpg

Core being 'squirted'. Excess material coming from the die bleed holes:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/3-4.jpg

Finished core:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/4-3.jpg

They roll down this little chute I made into a plastic tray:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/6-1.jpg

[algunjunkie]

I love the set up. please keep them coming.

[Al Nyhus]

Forgot to add:

On warming up the point die...there's a good amount of heat generated by the pointing process. Because of this, the first few bullets 'wander' a bit dimensionally until the die gets up to temperature. Warming the die a bit minimizes this tendancy.

I don't have any experience (yet;)) with carbide 'big body' dies, so it's possible this is only relative to smaller bodied dies.

[Kiwishooter]

Al would that press work with Niemi or Detsch bullet dies?
I ordered one of the B&M clone presses that George Ulrich made quite a while ago and have given up hope of ever getting one. But quite like the idea of a horizontal press......Kiwi

[algunjunkie]

what information are you logging when you are making notes?

I saw the lot numbers and weights logged but couldn't make out the rest. can you go into this a bit more?

[Al Nyhus]

what information are you logging when you are making notes?
I saw the lot numbers and weights logged but couldn't make out the rest. can you go into this a bit more?

Hadn't posted earlier, as I was gone to a BR tournament.

I record the:
-jacket lot number
-jacket weight
-the 'as delivered' jacket length
-jacket length after the core is seated to my prefered seating pressure
-core punch diameter used to seat the cores and the amount of 'bleed by'
-jacket length after the cores are seated
-amount of lube used to bring the pointed up bullets up to finished diameter
-base-to-ogive distance

Plus, any other info that may be helpful later on.

Good shootin'. :) -Al

[Stephen Perry]

Be nice to see George Ulrich and Gerry M. on 'the ole bullet making thread'. Several of us can talk small caliber bullet making but we need mid caliber bullet makers over here also. Hope to get Eric Stecker of Berger Bullets on the Thread also.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[caroby]

Al would that press work with Niemi or Detsch bullet dies?
I ordered one of the B&M clone presses that George Ulrich made quite a while ago and have given up hope of ever getting one. But quite like the idea of a horizontal press......Kiwi


Call David he will recommend the Boss II press from Redding as they are cast with a significantly greater precision than the current chinese cast RCBS rock chucker... I think he's asking 250.00 per press all converted with ejector frame and ram modification.

Stephen, I'm digging around my data archives for the old bullet making thread from BR Central......... It's in a word file I got from Wilbur..

cale

[Stephen Perry]

I don't buy much new in reloading equipment, never have. The only new equipment I have bought in the last 20 years is my Partner Press and my Bruno powder thrower. My RCBS presses for bullet making are at least 20-25 years old. The reloader might wear out but the equipment is always ready to do work. Most any heavy duty bullet press has been used for bullet making along with the Rockchucker. Randy Robbinet use of Lee presses is another way of using what's available, OK. Allen Bench a bullet making Mentor of mine from times Past would give more credit to the manufacturer than the discoverer and rightly so. Herters made or had made some presses that were used for bullet making, tough stuff. But most Press makers have a HD press, my Pacific Custom Deluxe press would do fine for bullet making once the conversion was done. Unless you have a dedicated Ram set up you will be sacraficing a press as there are no combo presses that allow you to go back unless you have a sepeperate Ram, and then why go back buy a seperate press for your reloading. If you have one read the 1954 The Ultimate in Rifle Precision by Townsend Whelen. In his book Whelen has 2 chapters on bullet making and bullet making equipment. Back in the 40-50's some of these bullet makers knew more of bullet making than their counterparts today will ever know.

So I don't get to excited when somebody claims new knowledge on bullet making when the same was being practiced 60 years ago thus my reference to Allen Bench who was making bullets 60 years ago.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[caroby]

Hi all.......... Well I thought I had the whole thread in a PDF file on a server that I currently have up and running......... Ain't there...

Ok.... Old server had a back-up on my Traven back-up tape drive... I'm sure it's there....

Will post soon.

cale

[Stephen Perry]

There are allot of good bullet makers in the original Thread some known names in the Shooting Industry. Big Plus for Small Caliber if you can bring the info on Cale.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Bandmiller2]

Can this level of precision be obtained with automated machinery??Are commercial bullet making machines proprietary [each manuf. makes his own] or are their industry standards??Seems even a small bullet maker would trip out on overload if he had to make many thousands one at a time.Frank C. sorry if this is out of place

[george ulrich]

i'll try to answer the best i can on this one. the commercial should be able to make as good or even better IF they followed the steps taken by the smaller and i'm talking about b.r. quality bulletmakers the thing is they do not clean cores or rewash jackets and they miss the feel of a bad bullet either during core seat or pointup operation.this being said they should be able to make better bullets in theory because its all about inertia on the presses.on the other side the smaller custom bullet makers keep everything CLEAN but they lose on the inertia side of running things.i'm not sure how many thousand you feel would cause a meltdown, but i personally can easily run 3-4 thousand bullets a day. hope this answers things. george

[Bandmiller2]

Thanks for your answer George,I never would have imagined someone could press that many bullets in a day.I can see that the automated machinery would lack feel especially in core seating. Frank C.

[GoWyo!]

Great thread all, Steve, thank you.

I recently purchased some old bullet making supplies and dies. B&A dies, 6mm, 7 ogive. @17K of old (late sixties) sierra and Gardiner jackets and 175 pounds of .22 cal lead wire and a little blade cutter that reminds me of a glorified cigar cutter. My deal also came with an old A2 RCBS press.

I need to find a "capture nut" for the press ram adapter that holds the punches. That is the only part I think I'm missing, oh, and the ejector punch caps to prevent a hole wearing in my hand. I've received some good advice on BRC and a few other forums. I plan on gearing up right after hunting season. Buying lube, core cleaning and etching materials, I imagine after 40+ years, the lead will have oxidized a bit, (looks great though!)

I'm not a Benchrester, but I thought this would be a worthwhile investment for bullets in a time when ammo and component costs are running through the roof. I have 4 .243's. I want a 6 PPC sako and a 6x45 AR, so this will help feed that sixy stable.

Thanks again.

Gary

[george ulrich]

Gary ,the press should have an ejection assembly that knocks bullets out automatically.you shouldn't have to use your hand. george

[GoWyo!]

Hi George,

I've seen pix of the automatic ejector, but there wasn't one with this set up. It may have been removed and placed somewhere else (lost). This set up came from my brother in law's father in law. He passed several years ago and was debilitated from Parkinsons for several years prior to that. Equipment gets shuffled around.

Best,


Gary

[Al Nyhus]

Gary, if you could post a picture of the setup, maybe we could be of assistance about an ejector setup. George is a guru on this stuff. -Al

[GoWyo!]

Howdy All,

I'll do that and post them. I do recall seeing some springs in one of the boxes. Do the B&A dies have an internal spring ejector? They didn't look that beefy.

I'll take some detail pix of the punch holder too. I'm pretty sure I'll need to have a cap nut made.

Gary

[Al Nyhus]

Here's a pic of some B&A dies. Do yours look anything like this? -Al

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/ba1.jpg

[GoWyo!]

I don't know if these are newer or older than your pic. There is a central die body that the different swages screw into. Here are the shots. I think I found out that the bullet pointer die takes the internal pin punch and you can put the spring inside which you compress on the up stroke. I can't see how this would work as the pin would be caught in the jacket as it swages down. Anyway here are the pix. Punches, die body with various dies (two lead core swages. H and X? there is also a longer lead core swage that looks like one in your pic Al.

Punches- I'll have to figure these out. the pin punch goes into the die body on top of the jacket pointer insert. 6mm -7
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_26471.JPG

Die body with swage inserts- pointer- 6mm 7; x and H are core swages although I don't know the difference. the last (no markings) is the core seater swage I think
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_2649.JPG

ram punch holder adapters. One on left is missing the cap, plus the extra lead core extruder-
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_26501.JPG

Top view (crappy pic) of the Die body, dies and ram adapter plus extra core die.-
http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/IMG_26525.jpg

So that's the gamut of what I got. Plus lots of wilson check dies and some lee lube dies? That will have to wait until I get into casting....thanks,

Gary

[george ulrich]

spring is internal on pointup die,squirt die and core seat don't use a spring.you have what i would call most of a set you can get by with one die body but its a pain.i have the same sales brochure as al all there dies were two peice construction.i'll dig around and see if i still have some spare bodies you can have them if i can find them. george

[george ulrich]

after looking at pictures again the ram adapter thats missing the nut and washer is threaded on the outside probably 7/8-14 for ejection assemblyit would be a flat plate that screws on and then threaded rods go up on both sides to another flat plate that knocks ejection pin down. george

[MIBULLETS]

I believe the spring is there to hold the ejection pin out of the die while swaging the bullet, not for ejection. For this typ of die set, you need an external ejector, one that is linked to the press ram and to the ejection rod. Many guys have made these using threaded rod.

[GoWyo!]

swapped the spring around, makes a little more sense:p.

George, I'd gladly take you up on those bodies if you have them. Thanks for the offer.

Any ideas on the H or X lead core dies?

Best,

Gary

[george ulrich]

Gary, my guess on the two core form dies is the jackets used at that time were mainly sierra gardner or kampin.b&a made a tapered core to fit the taper in sierra jackets,the gardners were straight walled and i think kampin were also so i would guess one die makes a tapered core and perhaps the other makes a straight core but this is just a guess the b&a dies i have around here make a tapered core . george

[Stephen Perry]

Not talking J4, but what do some of you choose for those hot 20, 22, 6 , and 30 cal bullets some of you talk about making. Bullet jackets were bored to try and achieve .0003-.0006 concentricity in days past by. Those making bullets back in the 50's -70's know what I am talking about. J4 jackets started by 4 former Sierra bullet company employees developed technology that now produces jackets in the .0001 range on a good day. Jackets in the .0003 range work fine for custom bullet makers. High production bullet makers such as Sierra, Hornady, Speer, etc. pray for runs of jackets in the .0003 range.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Mntngoat]

Stephen I use J4 jackets for the 20 caliber and 6mm bullets I make.

ML

[vmthtr in Green Bay]

I would guess most use the J4 as it is the best jacket available. Who else makes jackets, Corbin and Sierra??

Mike

[Stephen Perry]

E-bay has an RCBS A2 Press up for bid. I have one and 2 rockchuckers for my bullet making operation. My A2 is used for core seating. The A2 press would be at the top of the list of most bullet makers. Bid now $312 with 10 hrs of bidding left. I paid $150 for mine about a dozen years ago along with 2 rockchuckers for same $150 each, all with ejectors and ram conversions ready for bullet making. The A2 press on e-bay sold for $385. Think this is the only A2 I seen on e-bay. Best is a one opinion rating of equipment but for a single stage bullet making press the A2 would be my choice.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Mntngoat]

how does the A2 differ from a rockchucker?

ML

[Stephen Perry]

I have both. Took A2 off my bullet cube along with one of my Rockchuckers. I knew from the beginning the A2 was allot heavier but know I can say for sure. I left my Simonson dies in both along with the ejector rack on each. The A2 weighed in at 23# the Rockchucker 20#. Overall length the A2 is an inch taller. Physically the A2 looks wider in the web section of the similar 'o' presses. Both are desireable for including in your press operation for bullet operation.

I waited till the e-bay bidding ended on the only A2 press I have seen up for bid -$385 kind of crazy for a single stage press that was selling new in 1964 for $65. Somebody felt the value of A2. Rockchuckers are up for bid regularly, some sell for $75.

History of both not exact. The A2 came first, seen one in my 1964 Handloaders Digest but can't say that was first year model. The A2 to my amateur eyes appears to be forged steel. The Rockchucker replaced the A2 and I would say it is cast iron. Both have plenty enough for reloading and bullet making. Both have about a 4" opening in the 'o' section of the press allowing for most cartridge lengths, probably not .50's. Linkage looks the same on both.

One last thing diverting some. RCBS presess are not the only way to go in swaging presses. I only have Custom Bullet Making - Target/Hunting swaging data back to 1949 but am well assured quality swaging by such as Walker, Wilson, Pindell and the like were known among a few before this time. Presses were abundant back before internet I see vintage presses that would make fine swaging presses. Lacmiller, Herters, Redding, Easton, CH, Pacific are among the many that were used along with RCBS.

Lastly if money is your concern Blackmon does the job, read Al's section on Blackmon dies and presses in the 'ole bullet making thread'. I know there is more to add here like Corbin and Walnut Hill which I only know from pictures. Bring it on bring it all on. I'm sure there are homemade one of a kind swaging set-ups many would enjoy seeing. I started swaging as a young teen with a CH swagematic my dad let me use. What a kick making and shooting bullets I made, I was a bullet caster back then too.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Utah Shooter]

So this is about the 10th time that I have read through this thread.

1 question (I am sure more to come). Where is the link to this other thread Stephen has mentioned? I wanna read more!

[22 HORNET]

keep it going some one needs to make a video of it where we can watch it from start to finish. and a list of where to buy. HORNET

[Kiwishooter]

I have read through this thread several times also.......the original thread Stephen refers to was started over on BRC, something happened to this thread and while the thread was rescued all the photos and some of the posts are missing.......it was a very informative thread and spanned I think over 100 pages. If you pm your email address I'll email the pdf file of the thread.........Kiwi

[algunjunkie]

Kiwishooter

I got the files that you sent me. OMG the info that is there is way too valuable to be lost. Thank you very much for sending to me.

[Kiwishooter]

Hope it helps,........Kiwi

[stephen perry 1]

What bullets you gents swaging? Any problems getting materials.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[george ulrich]

Stephen,with the price increases at j4 and there problems keeping normal length jackets in stock its kind of a problem here also and we won't go into what a pain sierra is to deal with.sure hope someone steps up soon. george

[stephen perry 1]

George
I have a backstock of both 22 (.705) and 6 (.825) I bought awhile back when Gentner let me buy into his and Fowler's million J4 jacket purchase. We were fortunate that all the jackets were .1's. I still have plenty of both.

Is Bart buying all the Sierra jackets he can get his hands on George, if so others wanting Sierra jackets are probably shut out. If one needs J4 jackets I would buy direct from J4 or Bruno's. Good jacket hunting.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[MIBULLETS]

Do you think Sierra would do a group buy on jackets for us if we had enough takers here?

[BadgerBob]

I'm new to this bullet making stuff, I cant believe that I have waited this long to get into it. I made a set of 22 lr jacket makers just to have something to practice on. So far after ironing out a few little problems they make nice looking bullets.

The problem that I'm having is that being new to all of this, I would rather not have to buy 7000 17cal jackets to start with. Is there anyone out there that sells lesser amounts? I have 4 brand new 22cal jackets that I'm saving for a rainy day, I hope that I can get few more (not 3000 at this time), otherwise I spent a heck of a lot of money for 4 bullets and a bunch of brass colored bullets with a "F" on the base.

Bob

[dungheap]

Well, if you ever get into mass production, you can tell everyone that "F" on the bottom is for "fast." :D You can be creative when explaining the other marks that can be found on the bottoms of rimfire cases. May as well have a little fun while dealing with the drugery of bullet making, eh?

[Kiwishooter]

What bullets you gents swaging? Any problems getting materials.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR


Stephen I am making 6mm bullets for Benchrest, we do have problems getting jackets and lead locally, but I imported a good supply of J4 jackets earlier this year.
Lead is a problem locally it's almost NZ$7.00 per lb, I can buy lead from Lester for $150.00 for a 50lb roll but he adds $33 for UPS to 90220 Ca plus the $3 handling and 4% it starts adding up, in fact that adds almost 1/3 to the original cost. By the time I add freight from Ca to NZ I end up saving myself less than $1 per lb......Kiwi

[stephen perry 1]

Kiwi
Sounds like you have limited sources for buying bullet wire in New Zealand/Australia. If Lester is your best source I would 'bite the bullet' and buy as much as you can afford. About 10 years ago I bought 200# from Lester. The reason I bought so much was Lester told me the next time he ordered lead it would be more expensive, at that time lead wire was $1 per lb. I picked mine up from Lester's shop. I already had 50# when I bought Lester's wire. Still have 7 rolls left, 25# a roll in my case. Good Luck with your 6mm bullets.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[george ulrich]

do you think sierra would do a group buy on jackets for us if we had enough takers here?

dealing with sierra is a true pain i have been a dist. For a number of years.i did have standing orders of 100-120k every 3 months.worked good for a short while then the b.s. Started.i have waited up to three yrs. For short 30 cals.eventually they were delivered.i am waiting on 220,000 now that were ordered last spring,and told delivery would be by fall.called in sept.said i wouldn't receive before 2014.told about the correspondence and delivery dates.they held a "production meeting"and called with a new delivery date of no later then 12-31-2012.i guess i won't be holding my breath as i have heard nothing as of today 12-27.i have spoke with my lawyer ,i guess we'll take our next steps from here.as there are fed. Trade laws that are being broken.sooo good luck if you want to try dealing with all of there b.s. George

[MIBULLETS]

Good to know, thanks George!

[stephen perry 1]

I either buy jackets direct from Bergers, I live 25 miles away, or Bruno's when I'm in the area. Maybe others can tell where they buy jackets and wire. Every bit of info helps.

Stephen Perry

[MIBULLETS]

For what it's worth, Sierra says they have 22, .243, and .308 jackets in stock right now...

https://www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=store&page=purchase_bullet_jackets

[BadgerBob]

Found this fellow on another small caliber forum, he is making his own jackets. I got some of his 22 jackets as near as I can tell there very nice. I need to make a smaller core punch as there a little thicker (.015 walls) than any of the other jackets I have had.

New England Custom Bullets,inc
13 Maywood Rd
Newburgh,NY 12550

[george ulrich]

[QUOTE=MIBULLETS;163347]For what it's worth, Sierra says they have 22, .243, and .308 jackets in stock right now...

[url]] I have heard from them and 200k are ready for pickup.talked about next orders looks like about a year out for delivery.as I do large volume anything they stock really isn,t enough to keep me going.

[MIBULLETS]

Glad to hear they got some for you.

[stephen perry 1]

George and others. Do you clean bullets of lube. I don't. My reason is that I want some lube going down a bone dry barrel. Could make for some interesting discussioin.

Stephen Perry

[MIBULLETS]

I do clean them as I don't want anything to stick to them and get into my barrel.

[Al Nyhus]

Stephen, I leave the lube on and put 1K in a J4 jacket bucket. Before shooting them, I rinse them in acetone to remove the lube.

Good shootin'. -Al

[stephen perry 1]

AL,Tony shoots 3 bullets using 3 in 1 in his bone dry barrel. I feel leaving lube on is doing the same.

Stephen Perry

[stephen perry 1]

I want to start the Post and join in later. Like to hear from Gerry M, George Ulrich, Al Nyhus, J. Valentine, Robbie Robbinett, and others with info. This will be a good Post. This Post has been moved to a new Thread.

Stephen Perry

[Peeric]

How big of a tumbler do you need for lubing cores and jackets? I guess I want to be able to lube at least a thousand at a time.

Regards,
Peter

[Mntngoat]

thumbler tumbler works great

ML

[Peeric]

The big model "B"?

[stephen perry 1]

Peeric
I use a gallon size Mason jar for lubing jackets. Weigh my lube. Apply with wax paper on four sides and inside the lid. Doing a thousand jackets would be no problem, I do 600 at a time.

Your choice of a Thumbler Tumbler is fine but pricey. Unless you use it to clean cases which you might buy a second drum you might give the Mason jar a try. Check my 'ole bullet making thread' for lubing jackets.

Stephen Perry

[george ulrich]

The big model "B"?

that's the one.you can put a gallon glass jar inside with a small rag to tighten up against jar.tumble up to f you wish.me i2k 6 mm .800 lg. at a time if you wish. george

[stephen perry 1]

Unless your going to use the tumbler to clean brass and other stuff your wasting your money. Take the gallon mason jar lube it up and shake and roll for 15 - 20 minutes and your done. Take the tumbler money and buy something useful.

Stephen Perry

[Peeric]

Thanks guys!

I´m waiting for a set of old B&A dies that I picked up for next to nothing from someone who didn´t know what they were. My plan is to use those dies to see if I have the patience needed to invest in carbide dies:rolleyes:

Another couple of questions! I remeber reading somewhere that the B&A core forming dies made tapered cores? Is that right? If so, wouldn´t that make it impossible to use "jacket/core trays"?

Also, I will most likely need some more punches. Could I make them out of drill rod, or do they need to be hardened and ground to size?

//Peter Ericson

[george ulrich]

b&a do use tapered cores you can still use bullet trays but you would have to flip over the one's that are upside down that would be a pain to me but it beats stuffing by hand.you can use soft punches to get going but I would recommend hardened ones the soft ones will wear out of round pretty quick say a few thousand bullets and there's always a chance of bending or dinging punch edge. george

[Peeric]

George,
You are really doing your best selling me a set of carbide dies:D

Tapered cores doesn´t sound good at all, and I guess I´ll have to harden and grind the punches if I try to make them myself.

//Peter

[MIBULLETS]

I'm not using a tapered core either, but there could be some advantages. If you are using a jacket that has tapered walls, most do, the core could have a better chance of not trapping any air. You could also make your cores closer to final diameter if they fit the jackets better than a cylindrical core.

[george ulrich]

George,
You are really doing your best selling me a set of carbide dies:D

Tapered cores doesn´t sound good at all, and I guess I´ll have to harden and grind the punches if I try to make them myself.

//Peter

peter,not really going in for neck surgery at end of month will be shut down until around july 1. tapered cores work fine I have a few sets of b&a sets around,i haven't used them in years but I never had any problems with there cores other than having to put in one way. george

[Al Nyhus]

......going in for neck surgery at end of month will be shut down until around july 1. george

George, wishing you all the best for a good surgical outcome. I'm home at this time recovering from some low back surgery myself.

Guys, George is as good a guy as there is. When it comes to bullet dies and other high precision tooling...it just doesn't get much better. He's an innovative thinker and a hell of a BR competitor to boot.

Good shootin'. :) -Al

[george ulrich]

Al,hope recovery is going well, been thru the lower back I didn't really enjoy it.Thanks for the kind words all I can say is I try my best on everything I make.as for the competitor part i'm not as shall I say enthused as I once was. get well soon George Ulrich

[aaronraad]

No more throwing yourself under falling machinery George. Gary and I appreciate your support, even if your workshop equipment doesn't! Hope all goes well and your back on-line and firing on all cylinders again come July.

If your looking for something to do in the mean time, feel free to knock up your memoirs on bullet swaging and die making. I don't think we'll grow our understanding enough if another generation has to rediscover swaging again.

Quick, somebody give this man a book deal!

[george ulrich]

[QUOTE=aaronraad;171622]No more throwing yourself under falling machinery George. Gary and I appreciate your support, even if your workshop equipment doesn't! Hope all goes well and your back on-line and firing on all cylinders again come July.

If your looking for something to do in the mean time, feel free to knock up your memoirs on bullet swaging and die making. I don't think we'll grow our understanding enough if another generation has to rediscover swaging again.

the grinder isn't all that happy I've run it until its tongue was hanging out that will teach it. this idea has been brought up from time to time,it wouldn't be much of a book its not as complicated as some would like to make it. george

[aaronraad]

the grinder isn't all that happy I've run it until its tongue was hanging out that will teach it. this idea has been brought up from time to time,it wouldn't be much of a book its not as complicated as some would like to make it. george

It might not seem complicated but if it was easy then everyone would be doing it.

After having the opportunity to visit Tom Turton last year I think the detail is in what doesn't work, and where the grey areas can be explored. It still doesn't hurt to confirm what we know for certain either. No offence to Litz but the information in his first book wasn't exactly groundbreaking in terms of ballistics engineering. It was, as the title stated, an introduction on a subject previously dominated by literature from a manufacturer's marketing depatment. Not that Bryan isn't on the payroll either.

I declined an offer to do an article on bullet design and swaging in October last year. I declided obviously in part because of my experience, but also given I don't think I could cover bullet design in less than 6 monthly articles for the publisher. I'd have to spend another 6 articles just describing the learning curve I went through in the first 12 months!

If we knew the story behind a tenth of the failures that littered Ted Smith's workshop floor, I'm sure we'd be well ahead. Think of how many shooters are aware of the tests L.E. Wilson did in his breif article on jacket concentricty some +50 years ago in American Rifleman.

[george ulrich]

There certainly is a whole bunch of experiments that most people do not realize. I'm pretty sure all die makers play with a lot of different ideas, but it all seems to return to basically the same spot. from personal experience for short range b.r. I don't see much if any difference in nose shape I have made either dies or bullets from a straight 6 s, 7s, 7.5, 8s, 8.5s, 9-5s,9-6s, 9-7s,8-6s. all have won matches,set records or won nationals.the long range stuff is a different story seems to be a spot for experimentation even though I have made a few triple rad. ogive in 6 and 6.5 that seem to be winning on a regular basis. long range seems to be plagued with constant verticle problems, could be an ignition issue or twist vs. condition problem. george

[stephen perry 1]

aaron
Your bullet design book wouldn't sell except to people of similar interest as you, I'd buy one. Better to write on a Forum in basic not just to guys like that might give it the once over and then go to sleep. Before I started making my own bullets I concentrated on 2 Berger bullets a 7 ogive 68 for my 6 PPC and 52 grn 22 cal. for my 22 PPC.

I've shot other ogives but always went back to my roots. I go along with George nothing new under the sun in bullet making. My own bullet dies are Simonson 6mm, ogive close to my Berger 68's but closer to 7.5 ogive. My Rohrscach 22 dies are clones of the dies Berger and Watson used to make their 22 bullets close to 7 ogive.

I learn allot from my bullet making library dating back to 1951, like I said nothing much new under the sun about bullet making.

Stephen Perry

[amos]

Stephen, question on seating cores. I have been told that when seating them into the jackets you adjust your die down until the jacket starts to grow in length, and as soon as they do that's it. What do you think on this? I know from personal experience that you can pop a jacket and bend the ram pin in the press on the redding big boss from to much core seating pressure. I have a thin lead protrusion inside the jacket that looks even all the way around at this point. And I am sure others will want to know..

thanks amos

[stephen perry 1]

amos
I agree with what you have said. I set my core seating die similar but I am measuring with a 1/10 mic at the lead line, I want the lead line measurement to be same as final measurement on shank of new bullet.

Stephen Perry

[stephen perry 1]

20,000+
The 'ole bullet making thread' part 1 and part 2 broke the combined 20,000 readers today. Be nice if possible to combine the 2 parts into one for continuity sake.

Stephen Perry

[Bryan]

Lots of great info here.
Bryan

[george ulrich]

Bryan, wow I thought this post had disappeared into some computer void..:eek: haven't heard from Stephen on here in a long time hope all is alright..

[Bryan]

He's probably been making swaging dies out of Delrin and selling them to Rimfire shooters!
Seriously, I talk to him occasionally, and he is serious about bullet making.
Bryan

[Bryan]

By the way, is anyone making a .224 FBHP 7 ogive bullet in 51 or 52 gr. With Sta-Moly jackets? I'd like to try a few in my Hornet. Yes, .22 Hornet. The thing has shot some 3's with the Zia bullet!
Bryan

[george ulrich]

Bryan, I will get some sample jackets and send some samples. I have a 7s with a .038 ejection pin should be neat to try....

[Bryan]

George, I'd love to try some. This thing is teasing me with outstanding groups....on occasion:)
Bryan

[george ulrich]

give me a little time I'm slammed with dies right now. so if you can wait a month or maybe right after first of year we'll be good..

[Bryan]

Knee surgery soon so bullet testing will be not so soon.
Bryan