Beginning bullet swaging

[Gary in Illinois]

If a guy wanted to learn how to swage bullets (.204 or smaller), where should he start?

I have been doing some reading on Corbin's web site but would like to see just what the process includes.

I have some experience in casting and reloading but know next to nothing about the swaging process.

Is there anyone near central Illinois who swages bullets and would be willing to show a novice what is involved?

Thanks,
Gary

[Pappy]

Gary,

I'm a long way from Illinois, but your post is exactly why we started this forum. I intend to take some digital pix of my setup and discuss the steps involved.

The main reason for you to contact a bullet-maker before you begin is to make sure you have the temperament for the process. Some people can't imagine spending several hours at a time on these processes; others (like me) love it.

Also, making bullets for benchrest is a bit different than making hunting bullets, mainly because BR shooters routinely eliminate other sources of error, leaving the bullet to take the blame for a miss. That's a challenge.

[Daryl]

Gary, for the small diameter bullets, a normal heavy duty reloading press will work, with the appropriate dies, of course.
: Perhaps the easiest way to swage .204's is to start with .224's. I used a rockchucker to swage .375's down to .358 and ended up with the prettiest .358, 270 gr. spitzers you could imagine. The 300 gr. round noses looked like ink markers. Both shot well under 1" from the .358 Norma mag. so the accuracy wasn't harmed. I suspect pressure within the lead bullet swaging dies was quite high, though. There are dies meant for making .224's etc on loading presses - why not .204's?
: On the other hand, perhaps some of our wealthy friends here will suggest you get the whole she-bang- thousands of denaro and do it right.

[gunhaus]

While Daryl is right in that the Reloading press can be put to work swageing the small cal bullets, I don't think the cost savings merit it. The difference in cost between reloading press dies and dies for the Corbin swage press is not great. But, the difference in both ease of production, and precision are.
A basic set up would include; A 3 die set for open tip bullets(Core swage-core seat-point form) , a core cutter, lube, lead wire, jackets, and a press. Your current reloading scale will do for weighing duty. The only major difference between the reloading press set up and the swageing tool set up is the one time cost of the press (Which can serve extra duty as a heavy duty reloading press as well)
My first foray into bullet swageing was with a Corbin "Free Bullet" set up, for making 22 caliber bullets on the reloading press from fired rimfire jackets. It was fun, but also difficult and frustrating, and nearly drove us away from the hobby. Eventually we set up dedicated swage tools, and it really made a difference! -John

[Bayou City Boy]

I agree with John totally.

You can definitely get by with a reloading press for bullet swaging, but it does not make the job an easy one. When I got into swaging, I bought a swaging press to do it on, and I would probalby quit if I had to go back to a simple reloading press to do it now. There is a huge difference in quality and precision between the two types of presses.

Also, as John mentioned, a reloading press willl serve as an adequate way to swage bullets, but a swaging press is a much better set-up which will easily adapt to reloading cartridges if one press is all you want.

My swaging press even came with a shell holder adapter to make the switch to cartridge reloading an easy one, but I've never used it for that purpose. I still use a couple of Rock Chuckers to reload rifle cartridges.

Some old habits are hard to break, I guess. On the other hand, I can't imagine going back and trying to use one of the Rock Chuckers to swage bullets with.

JMO - BCB

[DittoHead]

What are the features of a swaging press that make it more suitable than a reloading press for swaging bullets?

I’m a firm believer in using the right tool for the job. I’m curious about the definition of “right tool.”

[Bayou City Boy]

Probably the easiest way to compare a bullet swaging press with a regular reloading press is to take the press handle and wiggle it sideways at any point as you cycle the handle. On the reloading press, you will feel "wiggle" and slack in the linkage when you do that.

When you do that with a swaging press, there is absolutely no "wiggle" as all moving surfaces are honed to a more precise fit and all pivot points run on bearings instead of just simple machine bored metal to metal contact surfaces. Also the ram itself runs inside a machined sleeve that keeps it in perfect alignment as it moves up and down. It's not just a steel ram running inside a hole bored in a cast frame. The fit is a lot more precise and tight as far as tolerances are concerned. Yet, when the swaging handle is cycled, it moves very easily and smoothly with no "take-up" in the linkage, but it's movement also feels very tight and precise, if that makes sense.

That may be an oversimplification and not what you are looking for, but that's what I see in the swaging press I own versus a couple of RCBS Rock Chucker presses that I own. The more precise alignment is necessary as you use a lot more force to swage bullets, even when just making 20 caliber bullets, than you do re-sizing even large cartridge cases.

Like was stated earlier, you can certainly use a reloading press for bullet making. But with each pull of the handle on a swaging press, you can feel more certain that everything has stayed in as good alignment as possible because the press linkage itself is assembled with a lot more precision and works without any "take-up" like you have and can feel with a reloading press linkage when you put it under stress.

When I bought my swaging equipment, I seriously considered not buying the press. However, after receiving the swaging press I purchased (Corbin CSP-1 S-Press) and comparing the way it is built with a standard reloading press, it became obvious very quickly that it's just a better made device for the task at hand. I've never once regretted spending the extra money for it.

HTH - BCB

[DittoHead]

That explains it. Thanks, BCB.

[jim saubier]

Our equipment has 3 dedicated presses, one for each step. We don't remove the dies or interchange the presses. Our presses are Reloading Presses that have been converted to bullet making operations. The conversion was done by Niemi Engineering, the makers of our bullet making dies and the process of converting them includes ensuring that they are square, that the ram is aligned with the die once it is in the press. The wiggle that you describe has nothing to do with the accuracy of the process, and I am pretty sure that most of the benchrest bullets made are done so using similar equipment. I wouldn't rule out a Rockchucker style press that has been modified and deemed acceptable for this task. I believe that most of the magic in bullet making is in the dies, the set-up, and the components used to assemble the bullets. I would love to see some pictures of your press, and would love to see how they work. If it is indeed better, I would consider using one. The stroke length, leverage, and durability are important to us, primarily due to the amount of pressure required to make a .30 caliber bullet. Our rockchucker style presses have extended length handles to make the job tolerable. My father (pappy) will be doing some write-ups on the process that we use to make bullets, which are .30 caliber bullets, ranging from 111 - 118 grains typically depending on the jacket length and core weight that we settle on for a particular lot of jackets.

Randy Robinett uses a horizontal press for core seating, but I believe he uses a press similar to ours for pointing up. His horizontal press is neat.

[Bayou City Boy]

Jim:

By saying what I did I'm not knocking anyone who uses an RCBS press for bullet making, as I realize a lot of folks use one. I'm sorry if that's what you took from my attempt to state why I like the press I use more than other options. I will just state again that the press I have is better made for the task - as it comes from the box - and I do understsand very well that it's the components that make a good bullet.

If I was going to have multiple presses to make volume bullets with, I would likely use a set-up very similar to what you use. I don't ... I make bulllets 3-4 hundred at a time for my own use, and I make them one step at a time so I do not need to worry about continually change out dies in the process as I purchased punch holders for each step of the process. Before I purchased the press I used, I talked with Clint Starke while he was still in business, and no one will argue that Clint did not make good bullets, and he used modified RCBS presses in part of his production. If I remember correctly, he also had a couple of, I believe, Corbin presses, and said they were efficient and worked well.

I also understand the RCBS presses that are used are beefed up and modified to do the job efficiently. I've seens several of them and don't doubt at all they make excellent bullets. I just chose to buy a press already geared for the job that needed no modifications, and would do so again. But thats' just me.

But, I am also acutely aware that I can make a terrible bullet using this press without my own personal attention to detail. Or I can pay attention to the details, which bullet making is all about, and make an excellent bullet with the press I use. Just like I imagine you do with the press you use.

Others may like the idea of using another press of various styles, and can consider me strange in some way, if they want, for spending extra dollars for the press I have. I in no way consider them strange or anything else for not buying the press I did. But, with the experience I now have with it, I would do it again....and money does not grow on trees at my house, either.

Going to Corbins web site is about the best place for you to get a picture of what his press looks like. In saying that, I am in no way pushing his toys to the world, I think many of his items are way overriced and I buy many swaging items from other sources.

And lastly, I tried to say that the wiggle was just one way that I see the press I have as being better made for doing the job - as it came from the box. I did not say a Rock Chucker would not swage a good bullet. I merely stated that the press I use has a much tigher linkage pretty much free from any pre-load, again, right out of the box. All pivot point are bearing loaded and not just metal to metal contact through bored holes. That helped to sell me at the time I bought my press....

With the S-Press I use, the individual die bodies themselves are screwed directly into the ram on the press and the punch holders are screwed into the top of the press with the punch pointing down. By having separate punch holders for each matched die and punch, I merely screw dies in and out along with each individual punch/punch holder which is pre-set for depth, check clearances that I need for the bullet weight/length I'm making, and I start the process,

Whether it's making cores, or seating them, or pointing up the jackets, I do each step one setting at a time. I may make 500 cores with one die setting, and then seat 300 of them before I move on to jacket forming for 300 bullets. Each step requires a simple removal of one die and punch/punch holder and the installation of the next matched die and punch/punch holder set.

I hope maybe this better expains what I was trying to say, and again I was in no way saying that good bullets only came from a press llike I use. It's just how I chose to do things when I bought my set-up, and with the good experience I've had with this press, I would probably buy another one just like it rather than use another type of press. But again, that's just me....

-BCB

Edited for spelling....

Further edit: The press I have has two stroke settings on it that are easily changed simply by removing a set pin. The long stroke I use only for taking .224" jackets down to @.198" and it is similar to the Rock Chucker stroke. It is the recommended stroke for using this press as a reloading press with the shell holder/reloading adapter which came with the press. Even though the longest jackets that I use are only 0.750" long to start with, the die and punch used for this operation requires a fairly long stroke to reduce the jackets down smoothly. Doing this does not require a lot of force to do it.

For swaging operations that require more force, the short stroke on the press gives you lots of leverage for swaging operations. It also allows for the ram to stay well inside the sleeve it runs in without excessive or long ram extension. I have no doubt in my mind that I get more effective swaging force per the pressure I apply to the handle with the short stroke setting than I could ever get on an RCBS press without an excessively long handle for applying additional leverage.

One other thing I like about this press is that there is no cam-over point or slack take-up on the short stroke. The more pressure you apply to the handle, the more pressure that is applied directly to the swaging operation throughout the entire stroke. And it's all very smooth and easy with the Corbin press.

[Rodgervich]

Here is my ratty RockChucker next to a Walnut Hill (RCE Co.) bullet swaging press. Note that the WH is on a 3/4" aluminum plate and makes it just a hair taller than if at the same bench height as the RC.
You can see it is a massive beast of machined steel bars next to the 'Chucker and yet it has only about 2/3 the stroke length. I assume the Corbin S press is similar in size and geometry (they are family you know :rolleyes: ).
About the same handle length and diameter but the WH swings a full 180* for a full swage cycle. I would love to see what a professionally converted Rock Chucker looks like!
Yes that is the typical state of my reloading area.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/RMEngineering/swagepress-001.jpg

[ray hauver]

Paul why did you go RCE over Corbin??? Bench looks fine to me, I'd feel at home.

[Bayou City Boy]

Ahhhh.... brother Richard's (Corbin) idea of how to make a bullet swaging press.

I believe the WH is a little larger than the CSP-1 S-Press, but they are very similar in the overall design. With the WH, the top of the ram has the two guides that it moves in while the other brother's press (Dave) doesn't have this. The handle mechanism and the handle itself are very similar in design.

Does the WH have the adjustable stroke? I don't remember.

When I was shopping for swaging equipment, it was obvious they were actually in competition with each other, but yet is was amazing how much of Daves's tooling perfectly fit Richard's designs and vice versa.

The only reason I bought Dave's press over the WH was at the time I purchased my equipment, I could get 20 caliber dies a little quicker from Dave, so I just bought his press to go with his dies as I felt the two presses were very similar.

In comparing the size of the presses against Rock Chuckers, the WH definitely looks to be a little bit wider and taller overall. I have my swaging press mounted on the opposite end of the bench - maybe 3-4 feet apart from one of my Rock Chuckers - so it's a little harder to compare than in Paul's picture.

I have my RCBS press also mounted on a separate mounting plate that's the same thickness as the one the swaging press is mounted on, so they are both mounted at the same height off the bench.

-BCB

[Rodgervich]

Ray, the WH press is on "long term loan" in return for my services upon request by the lender. As a beggar I do not choose, only accept thankfully. The .20 cal die set (part of the loan deal) is from Corbin and I bought an adapter set from RCE. I also purchsed a .429" lead bullet swage die from RCE just to fool around with, makes good bullets.
My presses swap places on the aluminum plate, I don't have room for both on the bench at the same time. Two or three bolts and they trade places, less than 5 minutes.
No the WH does not have an adjustable stroke.

[Gary in Illinois]

Does anyone know if there are any significant differences in quality or usability between the presses and dies made by Dave and Richard? (I do understand that the dies do not interchange between the "S" and Walnut Hill presses - at least not without adapters.) One other thing I noticed is that Dave Corbin's site states that any dies smaller than .224 are custom items (at custom prices!) and are not normally carried in stock. BCB, I find it interesting that you found better availability of small dies from Dave while I found them in stock at Richards?? I guess timing is everything!

I just ordered a Walnut Hill press from Richard because the dies I wanted (.172 & .204) were in stock. The whole setup is supposed to ship this week. I would have preferred to wait a little longer before deciding but availability of the .172 & .204 dies made me move quicker than I anticipated.

In talking with both Dave and Richard I found that Dave projects more of a "take it or leave it" and "it will be ready when I get around to it" attitude than Richard. At least that was my perception. I hope I don't find that there is a reason that Richard has product in stock and that I would have had to wait for it for some unspecified period from Dave!! I guess time will tell...

I will probably have MANY questions when I get the press, dies, lead wire and jackets. Hope they all come together to make bullets that fit my barrels!

Thanks for all the information.

Gary

[Bayou City Boy]

Gary:

I purchased my press, etc., and dies 6 years ago before there was much of a demand for 20 caliber bullet making dies like there may be now with the 204 Ruger floating around.

I don't remember the exact time frames involved with both of the brothers - Richard specifically - but neither one had the dies on the shelf at the time and had to have them made. I recall that Dave gave me a 6-8 week time frame for the dies to be available, but I actually had everything in hand about 5 weeks later.

If I remember correctly, the price between the two brothers for the complete package I bought was just a few dollars - I don't remember who was cheaper at the time.

All things considered, I have been very happy with the product I bought. Originally I bought additional bullet jackets and lead wire from Dave when I needed to replenish, and got prompt service. But I now use other vendors for those things and have not bought anything from him for several years.

As for your question on quality, if Richard had been the one to be able to get the dies the quickest at the time, I would have likely bought from him, and I'm sure I would have been just as happy with the final product. They both turn out good quality products.

Good luck with your venture. You'll most likely either love making bullets or you will find it a real chore. I'm not overly fond of doing it, but I do like the bullets I am able to make.

I can make both HP style and lead tipped bullets with the dies I bought. I've bought a few of the newer factory bullets to play with in the past couple of years, but I find myself always going back and making my own bullets because no one makes a 38 grain HP or a 41 grain lead tipped bullet. And it's kinda' fun to shoot targets or live animals with a bullet you've made yourself.

-BCB

[jim saubier]

I look forward to discussions like these, we've only been making bullets for a few years and do not claim to be experts in this field. I am interested in hearing more about the equipment that others use, and the options that we as bullet makers have. If indeed there is a better press for the job, I'd sure like to understand what makes it better, how it may differ from what we use, and if it is a good option for us. Could you take some pics of the dies in the press, show some close-ups of the ram, the punches, and the tooling in process, loading the seated cores, stuff like that so that we can get a better understanding of the process. My father is working on putting togethor some pics of our equipment, our process, and the things that we do to make our bullets.

[Bayou City Boy]

The first photo is a picture of my "inside” small caliber reloading and bullet swaging set-up. The Corbin CSP-1 S-Press is mounted on the right side of the bench and the RCBS Rock Chucker that I use for reloading is mounted on the left next to an RCBS powder measure. I use this arrangement for reloading all my small caliber (17, 20, and 22) cartridges as well as bullet swaging. The portable spool arrangement behind the RCBS press I made so that I could easily spool out lead wire for cutting into lengths using the lead wire cutting tool to turn into lead cores.

The oak table that I use is steel reinforced underneath on all four legs and it also has a 1/4" thick piece of steel plate attached to the entire underside of the table for reinforcement. The swaging press is actually mounted on a piece of very dense Mylar and it is bolted to the table top though the Mylar and through the underside piece of steel plate. The cabinet top is attached with L-brackets and is secure to the table top. The storage underneath is where I keep all my small bore cartridges in those little MTM boxes, as well as in several places you can see on the top cabinet

"Looking nice" was one of the trade-offs with my wife for having this arrangement in the house. As the kids grew up and left the nest, I acquired one of my two son's upstairs bedrooms for this purpose. If you look to the far left you can see my computer screen and key board for looking in on Saubier.com, etc.

I also have an RCBS press mounted on my work bench in the garage and that's where I do my smaller volume larger caliber hunting rifle loading. The garage is not air conditioned, so it gets a little hot in there in the summer, so this indoor arrangement works great for all year around.

http://img192.imageshack.us/img192/5788/bulletmakingcoreswaging001smallou7.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Then next photo is a close up of the lead wire cutter. The adjustment knob on the right side is used to adjust the length of wire cut each time. You cut the wire to a length that corresponds to the weight of the core plus about two extra grains of weight. This is done to insure that you cam make a solid lead core of the proper weight when actually swaging the lead wire into a bullet core. I’ll talk about this a little bit more later on when I show the core swaging die.

Notice the counter on the right underneath the wire cutting handle. I went to Academy Sports and bought a couple of cheapy hand counters and attached one to the cutter and one to the swaging press itself so that I can easily keep track of how many wires I cut and how many cores I make, etc. – essentially how many times I pull the handle and produce something. The first few times I made bullets, it seems like I spent more time counting parts than making bullets as my mind has a tendency to wander while I’m doing something, and mental counting was hard. This simplified the counting process.

http://img505.imageshack.us/img505/963/bulletmaking007smallga8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The third photo is a picture of the dies I use for the various stages of bullet making. Each die body has an external punch that is seen in the top compartments which actually fits snugly down inside the top of the die itself and does the actual work. Inside of each die is an internal punch which serves to push the finished product out the top of the die body when the press handle is returned to the upright position. On the Corbin press there is an internal set pin which holds the internal punch in place when the ram is raised and forces it up through the die body as the ram is lowered.

The die and punch on the far left are used for taking .224” bullet jackets down to @ .198”. This is a procedure which is done in reverse of all other bullet swaging operations on the press in that the punch sets on top of the ran and the die is mounted on the top of the press. You place a jacket on the punch, pull the handle to raise the ram, and the jacket is forced through and out the top of the die.

All of the other stage dies attach to the ram and the external punch is attached to a punch holder and is mounted on the top of the press facing down.

The second set of die/punches is the jacket cutter. You place an uncut jacket into the die body and raise the ram against the v-shaped cutter which goes inside the jacket and pinches it off at the top of the die. The length of the cut jacket can be adjusted to any length you want by the set nut on the internal punch. The little tool next to the v-cutter is used to measure jacket length in the die body when you adjust it.

The next die is the core making die and punch combination, followed on the right by the core seating die and punch, and then moving to the right is the point forming die and external punch. These dies are all used in stages to make a HP bullet of any weight length you choose.

The last die and punch on the right is used to make a lead tipped bullet. When making a lead tipped bullet, you swage the bullet tip and leave it open. Extra lead is extruded through the opening and looks kinda’ like a bubble of lead on top of the bullet. You run it through the tip former and the bubble comes out formed into a very nice pointed lead tip.

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/3324/coreswaging001dsmall2yo8.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Next is a photo of the core making die and external punch and the internal punch pulled down out of the die body. The external punch goes into the top of the die as the ram is raised and the internal punch is down below the swaging operation and against a set pin on the press as the ram is raised. As the ram and the die body is lowered in the press after swaging, the set pin forces the internal punch up through the bottom of the die and pushes the product out the top of the die body, whether it’s a lead core, a jacket with a core seated in it, or whether it’s a final formed bullet.

Each matched external punch and each internal punch fits the hole in the swaging die body very closely so that they move inside the hole freely with the press, yet keep the lead core or the bullet jacket formed correctly.

http://img290.imageshack.us/img290/1311/bulletmakingcoreswaging006smallqy3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The forum just told me I had exceeded the limit on photos for one posting when I tried to preview the next part, so I will continue below with another post.

-BCB

[Bayou City Boy]

Next is a picture of the core swaging die mounted on the press ram and the external punch mounted on the punch holder and pointing down toward the die body. As the ram is raised the external punch enters the top of the die where you have placed the cut lead wire and forces it into the die body to shape it.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/6199/coreswaging021smallva5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

The picture following it is a close up of the core making die in the press after swaging by the external punch. Notice the strings of lead coming out the sides…those are the extra two grains of lead wire not needed for the core weight you want. Having the lead strings coming out of the bleeder holes in the core making die insures you that the core is compacted fully with no voids, etc. The die actually has three bleeder holes, but the third one is on the back side of the die where it's not seen in the photo. When the internal punch pushes the core out the top of the die, the strings are sheared off and you can’t even see where they were on the finished lead core.

Notice the counter mounted on the right to keep track of ram stokes and to count parts made in each stage of the process. Each time the press handle is returned to its full up position with the ram down completely, the handle trips the counter and adds another number to the number count of cores made, cores seated in jackets, or bullets formed.

http://img69.imageshack.us/img69/1081/coreswaging006smallnw9.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Following is just a picture of some cut lead wire and some finished and washed cores to be seated into jackets and turned into 38 grain HP bullets.

http://img243.imageshack.us/img243/9427/coreswaging004dsmallik5.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

And last, but not least, is the most important piece of the whole process. Without bullet lube used in every stage of the process, you’ll find that you will have a bullet in some stage of completion stuck inside an expensive swaging die. It hasn’t happened to me yet, but, “knock on wood”.

I understand if it’s done at the “right moment” in the process that you can have a press, external punch, and die which are all firmly locked together as one unit. Not where you want to get.

http://img175.imageshack.us/img175/6303/swaginglubesmallrp3.jpg (http://imageshack.us)
So….. I hope this helps explain a little bit more about bullet swaging. I just covered one part; core making, but the process is similar for each step in making a complete bullet.

-BCB

EDIT: Just one last point I meant to include. If you noticed when I began describing the dies used, I mentioned that I took a .224" jacket down to an external measurement of @.198". When you swage bullets, you start with a bullet jacket which is actually smaller in diameter than the finished product, and the swaging process increases it's diameter/size through pressure applied on the inside of the bullet jacket until you have a finished bullet measuring .204". Most of the internal pressure is appied in the core seating operation. It's kinda' just the opposite of re-sizing brass where you reduce the brass in size externally. When swaging bullets, you increase the external diameter.

Also, the external punch holder, by design, is adjustable much like a sizing die to change/adjust the amount that the external punch goes down into the die body when the ram is fully raised..

[DittoHead]

Thanks for the demonstration, Bayou City Boy. How do you remove the swaging lube from the cores? Tumbling? Chemically? I’m assuming that’s what you mean by “washed cores.”

[Larry in VA]

Excellent write-up! Could you or someone recommend a good book on the process of "Bullet Making"? Always wanted to know more about the "BM" process, looked at some of Corbines books but sticker shock:eek: kept me away at the time. I really don't need another hobby, but this is getting more & more intriguing. Wife is gonna kill me!:D
Larry

[jim saubier]

The primary difference that i notice from your operation is the location of the die. It is opposite of ours, our die is threaded into the press like a reloading die, and the punches are located on the press ram. not an advantage or disadvantage, just different. wondering how the ejection works, i'll try to get some pics. couldn't see it in the pics, with our set-up there is an ejection pin that pushes down through the top of the die, pushing the bullet out by the nose.

[Gary in Illinois]

Larry,
Dave Corbin has some e-books on his site that are available free for downloading. I found his "Handbook of Swaging #9" well worth reading as it steps through the process using his tools.

Good luck,
Gary

[Bayou City Boy]

The primary difference that i notice from your operation is the location of the die. It is opposite of ours, our die is threaded into the press like a reloading die, and the punches are located on the press ram. not an advantage or disadvantage, just different. wondering how the ejection works, i'll try to get some pics. couldn't see it in the pics, with our set-up there is an ejection pin that pushes down through the top of the die, pushing the bullet out by the nose.

Jim:

I have seen two swaging set-ups on RCBS presses that I imagine are just like yours, and that is a difference in how the process works versus my press.

On the bullet point forming die, as the press handle is pulled down to raise the die/ram against the fixed external punch, the bullet jacket is forced into the die open end first and the bullet nose is formed at the botom of the die. The external punch pushes on the base of the bullet jacket to force it into the form die.

On the up stoke of the press handle, the ram and die is lowered away from the fixed external punch and the internal punch/ejection pin pushes against the nose of the bullet to push the bullet up and out of the die.

I don't know if my press just happens to be perfectly level or what, but about 50% of the time the finished bullet is actually sitting balanced nose first on the ejection pin which is level with the top of the die.

The diameter of the internal punch on the point forming die is 0.060" and the die allows for the forming of a bullet with the tip completely closed before the bullet tip starts to '"fish mouth" or bell outward in the bottom of the die.

I can also leave the bullet tip open more than 0.060" if I want and the ejection pin merely goes inside the bullet tip and pushes against the seated lead core to eject the bullet. I have examined the interior of the bullet with a magnifying glass when doing this, and the pin leaves just a very small insignificant mark on the end of the lead core.

All of the other stage dies work this way and leave the finished product sitting on the top of the die when the press handle is return to the full up position. It makes it very easy to just pick the finished product off with the fingers.

As I mentioned at the start yesterday, the only die/punch combination that works with the external punch mounted on the ram and the die on the top of the press frame is the jacket reducing die. The jacket is placed on the tip of the punch and it moves up and through the reduction die and the fully reduced jacket comes out the top of the die. This is also the only process where the long/reloading stroke on the press is used and needed. The operation requires very little effort with the press.

All the other forming stages use the short stroke setting where the ram does not move nearly as much with a full pull of the press handle.

The bullet lube which I use is water soluble and I bought a strainer like our wives might use to rinse pasta with......that's how I rinse the lube off the lead cores with warm faucet water. I also use it to wash the trimmed bullet jackets prior to seating the lead cores in the jackets. And of coure it's very important that both the cores and the jackets are thoroughly dried before you seat a core into a bullet jacket.

Everything I have read about bullet swaging emphasizes the importance of a clean jacket - inside and out - and a clean lead core to insure good bonding of the two when the core is seated. I would imagine that it becomes more important both for the balance of the bullet itself and for terminal bullet performance (core separation) as you swage bigger diameter bullets.

I took a short-cut one time with a few 20 caliber bullets just to see if there was an impact on performance. I didn't wash the cores or the jackets and the bullets did not shoot as well at 100 yards as bullets with washed cores and jackets. It made a believer out of me.

As was mentioned, Dave Corbin's web site has some very informative information free for the taking. I found working with him 6 years ago to be very easy when I had a lot of questions and was shopping prices. On the other hand, and I say this somewhat tongue-in-cheek, he would make an excellent used car salesman as he is very persuasive when you talk to him. But I can say that easily and without any malice as my wife was raised in a family headed by a GM car dealer. And Dave did not "sell" me on buying his equipment; as I mentioned earlier he was just able to give me a little bit better delivery time 6 years ago with everything else seeming to be pretty equal between he and his brother (RCE, Inc.). I have spoken to Richard also and have found him to be very helpful too in answering the questions I had. I could easily deal with either one of them in the future if I was starting over.

HTH - BCB

[Pappy]

I'd like to try another kind of press sometime, just to see if it would enable me to make more bullets in a week. Counting cutting the cores, squirting, seating, and pointing up, it takes 4000 strokes to make 1000 bullets, and the need for perfect uniformity just begs for an RMS (Repetitive Motion Syndrome) injury. So far, I've avoided that pitfall, but I rarely complete more than one step in a day, except sometimes easy ones like cutting core pieces. Pointing up requires the most effort, and most days I can't do 1000 at one sitting.

[Bayou City Boy]

That was precisely the reason I stated earlier in the post Re Black Hole Bullets that anything short of an automated machine would not be good for a bullet maker in the business of selling large volumes of bullets.

Day after day of cranking any press handle would accumulate on your body fairly quickly, I would think, - irregardless of what hand operated press you might use.

JMO - BCB

[vmthtr in Green Bay]

http://img146.imageshack.us/my.php?image=img1307ib5.jpgMy friend is making 30 caliber bullets for HBR. He bought Blackmon steel dies and is using a Blackmon press for the last point up operation and modified Rockchuckers for the others. We used his bullets for a 1st and 2nd place looser finish in the WI state finals this year. (2nd and third place) He makes three weights, but mostly just one and leaves the dies set in each press. He will make no less than 1000 bullets before he changes out for another weight. I helped one time and would rather neck turn brass than make bullets, luckily he really likes making bullets.

Mike

[Larry in VA]

Larry,
Dave Corbin has some e-books on his site that are available free for downloading. I found his "Handbook of Swaging #9" well worth reading as it steps through the process using his tools.

Good luck,
Gary

Thanks Gary, I will check them out.
Larry

[jim saubier]

i've heard a lot of good things about the blackmon dies and have shot some very good 6mm bullets made from these dies. To the best of my knowledge, he only makes steel dies, not a problem unless you plan on making a few hundred thousand bullets.

Congrats and good shooting.

i hope to see lots of experienced bullet makers sharing knowledge here, so invite your buddy to join the site.

[vmthtr in Green Bay]

Jim,
We sent him some of the bullets you sent me and told him to copy them. He will make carbide dies, but cost is a lot more. I will send him this forum addy.

Mike

[Gary in Illinois]

Well, I received the first 3 packages from Richard Corbin today. Lots of parts and pieces and no instructions yet. Hopefully they will come in the last package due later this week.

Since I am still waiting on the jacket reducing die, the .172 die set and the lead wire cutter, there isn't much I can do yet. I think I have figured out what most of the pieces are for and how they go together. The only thing I was able to do with what I received is swage a bullet core (approx 45 gr) for the .20 caliber bullet. I was surprised at how little effort this required. I understand the real work is in forming the point.

The RCE press seems to be very well built and really sturdy. I am still trying to decide how and where to mount the press and the riser stand. I am anxious to get the rest of the setup so I can actually make a bullet!

Gary

[Rodgervich]

The pic is the one posted previously but I identified what each set is, as near as I can tell anyway. Looks the same as what I have so I believe this is correct, I don't have a point close/reform die so I can only guess that is what I have identified. There are also a few parts that I do not have and cannot identify: the little black thingy in the top of the "core swage" compartment and the little stepped rod gizzie to the left of the tapered pincher in the top "jacket trim" compartment.
As to how you use each one that would take some more detailed explanation than I can do by the forum. Make sure you call Richard and tell him you need some instructions and ask what he has available to send to you. Otherwise you will have to buy the book "Handbook of Bullet Swaging #?" from Dave Corbin or wander through the maze of info on Daves site www.corbins.com (http://www.corbins.com) and may be able to figure out the basics from that. The absolute best is to find someone locally who can and will give you a personal lesson.
Get some proper swage lube too of course.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v216/RMEngineering/BulletMakingdies.jpg

[Bayou City Boy]

but I did try to leave a fairly good explanation of each die and it's function above the picture on page two..... Including what the little tool next to the v-cutter is for and about the point forming die on the far right for lead tipped bullets.

The other item in question is a decapping rod nut for a sizing die that just happens to be be almost the proper length to set the punch holder from the seater die for that operation when I make 38 grain HP bullets. It's just a "cheater" to get me close to start...from there I go by visually checking the appearance of the seated core to finally set the core punch depth.

I hope you can get detailed instructions from richard for the use of each die. That's what the papers are on the top of the lid.

And as I mentioned in my original post with the picture/s, the swage lube is literally the most important item to have.


-BCB

[Gary in Illinois]

I think I have identified most of what I received and have figured out (somewhat) how most of it works. My dies are for the Walnut Hill press and are all different from those in the picture (those appear to be Type S dies from Dave Corbin). I have not yet received my jacket draw die and jacket trim die.

I was able to swage a core and form a lead bullet using the .20 caliber dies. Couldn't put it into a jacket since I don't have the right combination of jacket draw die or pre-formed jackets yet but I was anxious to see how the point of the bullet looked. Looks like it will take some experimenting to find the right core length and die adjustments to get the right amount of lead into the jacket and the right adjustment to form the point without extruding lead from the bullet point. I ended up with a bullet with an extrusion from the point about 3/4" long!! I continue to be surprised at how little effort is required to do the forming - maybe it will increase when I form the point using a jacket.

For the .20 caliber die set, it appears that I have several sizes of external punches for use with the core seat die. I assume these are for use with jackets of different thickness?? Does this sound right?

I have downloaded and read most of Dave Corbin's "Handbook of Bullet Swaging #9" and asked Richard to send me instructions. Hopefully they will arrive with the last of the swaging equipment.

I think I will enjoy this part of the shooting / reloading sport as I have always hunted deer with home-cast bullet in my handguns. I feel it adds to the enjoyment knowing that I made the bullets I use.

Thanks for all the information you have provided.

Gary

[Bayou City Boy]

The picture of the dies that I provided are the S-dies from Dave Corbin as is the press and wire cutter, etc. that I showed in my post on page 2.

And you are also correct that point formng with a jacket requires more force than just forming lead. But you'll find that it all works fairly easily without the need for a great deal of force for the smaller caliber bullets.

-BCB

[Rodgervich]

BCB, you are correct, you did describe everything. Jeez, I feel a bit foolish for not paying better attention. I read it a few days ago but it all slipped right through my head. Sorry about that.
The jacket length gage is pretty neat, I'll have to make one of those up ASAP! Didn't see what you called the little black nut though.

[Bayou City Boy]

I'm over 50....and I thought I had provided explanations, but I went back and looked just to be sure. Stranger things have happened with my mind.....

Part of the depth gauge is covered up by the v-cutter. It's actually a little screw with a finger tab on it to use to adjust depth on the little collar from the top of the die.

The Allen wrench is used to adjust jacket length...the bottom end of the internal punch has an Allen head and you hold the nylon lock nut with a small "adjustable metric" wrench and adjust the length with the Allen wrench.

The sizer die rod nut.....I explained what I used it for just above in my previous post. Since getting separate punch holders for each punch that I can leave adjusted, I don't use it any longer. Just never took it out of the die box.

HTH - BCB

[caller223]

Can't resist telling you all some of my swaging tales. About 36 years ago I was at a gun show and spied 2 rolls of lead wire and a set of dies. Looking at dies you could see a 22 bullet stuck in dies. Guy didn't know anything about them and sold cheap. I had saw ads before from SAS, wrote to them and recieved answer from Ted Smith, inventor/designer of the dies ( and the guy that sold to the Corbins some time later) . Ted said sounds like my dies, if you don't mess with them I will remove stuck bullet and polish dies and let you know what you have. This started a long term friendship, Ted made me up a ram for a Rockchucker and supplied me with directions, some jackets and got me started, then made me up some 6mm dies and sold me a couple of his Mity Mite presses. BTW they were great little presses for small calibers.
Richard Grantham

[Bryan]

I made .224 bullets on Larry's dies and press for years. When I went commercial, I bought Niemi stuff (from Clint Starke). The Blackmon setup went to a BR shooter in Phoenix who wins his share of wood with those bullets. Last time I talked to him, an un-named shooter who you all know, had shot those bullets and was wanting a bunch more. Blackmon's stuff is very good.
Bryan

[Pappy]

I noticed no mention of what lubes to use. Every bullet maker has a favorite, I think. Core squirting is easy; I use RCBS Case Lube II; just about 9 grains of lube for 1000 core pieces (for 30 cal), tumbled in a gallon jar for about 20 minutes. The trick to core squirting, if you want to get uniform weight cores, is to cut the pieces as uniformly as possible, then, when squirting, don't go too fast. Seems the lead keeps squirting out slowly after the initial stroke. It takes probably a full second for it to stop. With practice and a lot of weighing, you can get very uniform cores more quickly than that, by altering the pace according to how heavy the core feels.

Don't forget to degrease the cores completely before seating. I boil them in water with dishwasher powder (like Cascade), then rinse.

For jacket lube I suppose you can buy it, but I make mine from castor oil and anhydrous lanolin 1:1 by volume. I use lube-grade castor, not pharmaceutical, but it probably doesn't matter. The lanolin you can get online. It takes only about 8 grains of lube for 1000 cal 30 jackets.

[Gary in Illinois]

Pappy,
I haven't given up on this project. I am still waiting on the lead wire cutter, jacket drawing die for the .204 jackets and the .172 die set. I can't really do anything except read until I get these materials.

Every time I talk to Richard about the remaining items he is "just about ready to ship" but it hasn't happened yet. It seems that he is still working on part of the .172 die set. Hard to understand for something that was "in stock". :confused: I can already see the need for additional point forming dies and punches but who knows how long another order will take?

I sent Richard an email Monday asking him to ship everything except the .172 dies if they are holding up everything else. I haven't had a reply yet.

As far as lube goes, I started to order both the jacket drawing lube and the swaging lube but Richard advised that I could just use the swaging lube for both processes.

Maybe I will get to try my hand at making a few bullets before the end of the year if I am lucky.

Gary

[Gary in Illinois]

Now that I have my lead cutter I have been busy turning lead wire and jackets into piles of scrap!! I have finally reached the point where the quantity of good bullets exceeds the scrap now and I have a question about polishing the finished bullets. (My last run was 32 good bullets, 7 marginal bullets and 4 destined for the melt pot.)

I have crushed walnut shell media but mine is so fine that it can get stuck in the open bullet tip so that doesn't look like a good option. I tried a small plastic container lined with a 3M polishing pad in a vibratory cleaner but that makes the bullets very dull. I have some fairly coarse ground corn cob media in a small container in the vibratory cleaner as I write this. I may just need to get some more coarse walnut hulls but I thought I would ask what you all use.

So far, I enjoy making bullets. I am slowly learning that all of the steps are far more inter-related than I thought. For example, I learned not to expand the bullets to their full .204 diameter when seating the cores. If I do, I have wrinkles near the base of the bullet when forming the point. For my die set, expanding the bullet to .2035 when seating the cores allows the point forming die to bring the finished bullet up to full diameter. I spent quite a bit of time (and made a nice pile of scrap!) adjusting the point forming die before figuring this out.

I am working with a VLD .204 bullet as my first attempt. I shot a few of these at different weights in my .20 PPC yesterday. I also shot 40 grain Hornday Vmax, 40 grain Nosler Ballistic Tip, 45 grain Hornady soft point, 40 grain Berger Varmint BT and 50 grain Berger Varmint BT as my "control". Strange as it seems, my worst group with my bullets was nearly the same as the worst group with my "control" rounds and my best group with my bullets was identical in size to my best group with the "control" rounds. In my 9 twist Lilja barrel both the 50 grain Berger Varmint BT and my 44.8 grain VLD shot .435" groups at 100 yards with a variable breeze. I do hope to improve on this but it may take someone else behind the trigger as I seldom shoot much better than .30" to .40" with good loads in my varmint guns in good shooting conditions.

About time to order some more jackets! Back to my original question, what are you using to polish your finished bullets?

Thanks for any pointers,
Gary

[DittoHead]

I’m just writing to thank you for the update. This is an interesting subject and I appreciate the opportunity to learn from your experience.

[Bayou City Boy]

Gary:

If I want my swaged bullets to look really shiny, I use a liquid cleaner called Selig Commercial Use CITRUS Multi-Purpose Cleaner. I can buy it at Ace Hardware off the shelf.

I use a small plastic bowl with a tight sealing lid on it for 100-200 bullets at a time. I add enough water to the bowl to cover the bullets totally and then squirt about three or four squirts of the Citrus cleaner into the water.

I put the lid on the bowl and set it on my case vibrator so the bowl sits against the center bolt and the edge of the vibrator and turn on the vibrator for about 1 hour.

After that, I rinse the bullets in warm water and dry them with a towel by rolling them around in it.

When I first started swaging, I did this religiously to make the bullets nice and shiny and professional looking. Now I seldom do it any more and just shoot them with a little tarnish on them. But generally they come out of the swaging process looking very good after just rinsing the bullet lube off with warm water and drying them.

HTH - BCB

[Pappy]

Gary,

What kind of jackets are you using? I find that Berger J4s are bright enough that they don't need polishing. I have some Sierra jackets that I got during a J4 shortage, and they are actually brown. I tried brightening them up in vinegar, but they tarnished so quickly that it wasn't worth it. The citrus cleaner seems worth a try, but I suspect that the alloy used is more important than the initial condition.

I use RCBS Case Lube 2 for lubing my core pieces. I tried some other lubes, but the CL2 is readily available and it is water soluble, so I feel that my finished cores are more thoroughly degreased than they might be if I were using, non-water-soluble lube. It doesn't take much - I use about 8 grains of lube for 1100 core pieces (79-grain pieces).

For core seating and pointing I use 1:1 (by volume) of anhydrous lanolin and lube-grade castor oil, about 6-8 grains of lube per 1000 jackets (.30).

My rule of thumb for seating is that the jacket with the seated core should be the same diameter as the inside of the die, no more, no less. The tricky part is that you can't measure it right away because the diameter changes overnight, and the amount by which it changes depends on your lead alloy and the wall thickness of your jackets.

[Gary in Illinois]

BCB,

I looked for the Selig Citrus cleaner at my local Ace and found that they don't carry it. I'll look at the larger Ace store in Springfield next time I'm there.

Pappy,

I am using J4 jackets that I purchased with my dies from Richard Corbin. They may have been in stock for a while and became discolored with time. I realize that the degree of polish on the bullets likely doesn't affect the performance but my finished bullets lack the shine of a newly opened box of Berger bullets.

I have been using a bottle of bullet swaging lube I bought from Richard Corbin with my initial purchase. It seems to do the job well and washes off the cores easily with dish soap and water. I have a quart of this lube so it will likely last a long time. How do you apply lube to the jackets prior to seating the core or forming the point? I have been applying with my fingers to each jacket prior to running them into the die in order to keep the lube from inside the jacket. My method is slow and rather messy - is there a better way?

With respect to the diameter of the jacket with seated core - are you saying that the core should be slightly undersized upon removal from the seating die (in my case slightly under .204) and will expand or "grow" somewhat after removal from the die? How much growth would you expect from .204 bullet in J4 jackets with pure lead cores? I guess I could just measure some immediately after removal from the die and then measure the same units a couple of days later!

Thanks for all your help.

Gary

[Gary in Illinois]

Do those of you in the bullet making business carry product liability insurance? If so, how much do you carry, who is your carrier and approximately what is the annual premium cost?

Only a few friends are aware that I am learning to make bullets and I have already been asked to sell them some. I am hesitant to do this due to our wacky legal system and the potential liability.

Gary

[Bayou City Boy]

Gary:

Probably any similar cleaner will do the same thing. I'm sure there are other citrus based product available. As I stated earlier, I no longer spend the time cleanng up bullets for my own use like I did when I first started.

They shoot just fine and look pretty good with just a good washing in warm water to get rid of the bullet lube on them.

Good luck... -BCB

[iiranger]

i've heard a lot of good things about the blackmon dies and have shot some very good 6mm bullets made from these dies. To the best of my knowledge, he only makes steel dies, not a problem unless you plan on making a few hundred thousand bullets.

Congrats and good shooting.

i hope to see lots of experienced bullet makers sharing knowledge here, so invite your buddy to join the site.

Last literature I received from Mr. B had available carbide dies. Not on the shelf, but available...

[iiranger]

FYI: Dr. Dave Corbin has a directory of bullet swagers (dozens and dozens, some international... one was in Poland???) --who use his equipment and probably pay a fee to be listed... it is a bit easier to find at swage.com. In all likelyhood, there is someone in your general area who could "show you around" their operation... you just need to look. See how far you want to travel and how willing they might be. enjoy.

[george ulrich]

gary, i'm not to far from you and make benchrest bullets, dies, presses, bullet spinners, bullet boards if you need some help email me i will do whatever i can. also last time i spoke to larry blackman he only makes steel dies now whoever was e.d.m.ing carbide didn't want to fool with it anymore. i also made the horizontal press that randy robbinet is using. george

[John Parrish]

gary, i'm not to far from you and make benchrest bullets, dies, presses, bullet spinners, bullet boards if you need some help email me i will do whatever i can. also last time i spoke to larry blackman he only makes steel dies now whoever was e.d.m.ing carbide didn't want to fool with it anymore. i also made the horizontal press that randy robbinet is using. george

George:

What is the purpose of the bullet spinner and the bullet board? Thanks

John

[george ulrich]

the bullet spinner checks the relationship of how square the base is to the outside of bullet, the bullet trays are used for loading cores into jackets 5 trays each tray has 210 holes this really makes life a whole lot easier then 1 at a time. george

[lup]

I bought an adapter set from RCE.

What does the adapter set look like. I've been waiting patiently for mine.

I'd like to use S dies in an RCE press.

Thanks,

LUP

[mikemillerphotog]

Hello,
Where is a good place to buy bullet swaging supplies, i.e. lead wire, bullet jackets?
Thanks,
Mike