Lead alloy for bullet cores?

[BadgerBob]

I was wondering if a fellow could use an alloy for bullet cores instead of pure lead? I made a press to make lead wire and I think it would work with an alloy since I have so much lead that has tin in it.

Just trying to use up some of this lead that has tin in it an save some of my pure lead for more important things.

Bob

[PS1]

BadgerBob, A fellow can use lead alloy safely under certain conditions, but complying with those conditions is critical. One mistake and you'll crack a $250 die. It's difficult to list those specific conditions, but in general the thicker and harder the walls of your dies are, the safer it is. Too, if there's any steps in the die, such as a reduction that includes threads, that will be a potential fracture point. Too, the bullets will have some spring back as an alloy has more 'memory' than pure lead. This requires dies built to handle that specific alloy so that the finished diameter of the bullet is what you desire. You say you make your own wire: you'll find a tremendous difference in required pressure to make your alloy wire as compared to pure lead wire, and if you measure the OD of the product you'll notice a difference in size. Also, the nose form of your bullet can effect the ease of forming it using an alloy, either as being in a jacketed core, or as a plain alloy bullet. Lastly, there is a problem knowing what the BnH of your alloy is. What is 'Hard'? Do you have the resources to, say, control the BnH between 14 to 15? The bottom line is that I recommend that you use your alloy to cast bullets, or use it for trade goods, and only use pure lead (BnH5) for swaging. If you didn't special order your dies to handle alloy of a certain hardness you'll always have the threat of a broken die hanging over your head, and probably will be making sub-caliber bullets.

[J. Valentine]

BadgerBob, A fellow can use lead alloy safely under certain conditions, but complying with those conditions is critical. One mistake and you'll crack a $250 die. It's difficult to list those specific conditions, but in general the thicker and harder the walls of your dies are, the safer it is. Too, if there's any steps in the die, such as a reduction that includes threads, that will be a potential fracture point. Too, the bullets will have some spring back as an alloy has more 'memory' than pure lead. This requires dies built to handle that specific alloy so that the finished diameter of the bullet is what you desire. You say you make your own wire: you'll find a tremendous difference in required pressure to make your alloy wire as compared to pure lead wire, and if you measure the OD of the product you'll notice a difference in size. Also, the nose form of your bullet can effect the ease of forming it using an alloy, either as being in a jacketed core, or as a plain alloy bullet. Lastly, there is a problem knowing what the BnH of your alloy is. What is 'Hard'? Do you have the resources to, say, control the BnH between 14 to 15? The bottom line is that I recommend that you use your alloy to cast bullets, or use it for trade goods, and only use pure lead (BnH5) for swaging. If you didn't special order your dies to handle alloy of a certain hardness you'll always have the threat of a broken die hanging over your head, and probably will be making sub-caliber bullets.

+1 on that. Also even if you don't crack a die using lead that is too hard over time can bulge a die and it could loose it's critical match.
Commercial swaging dies might only have .0005 or less diameter difference between the Core seater and the point former . When you add some wear also to it you don't have to bulge the core seater much to have a bad ejecting point former in a short time .
Also press leverage is an issue and must be up to the job.
Also calibre and ogive radius is an issue and as the diameter goes up and the ogive radius gets longer the pressure required to swage goes up exponentially add harder alloy and it makes it even worse quicker .
Cores that are approaching too hard for a die and press sytem can also suffer from inconsistant core seating . You think you have got a normal seated core but it can fail to fill out the base of the jacket properly .

[BadgerBob]

Thanks fellows, thats why I asked first. After I made my wire swag it just got me thinking, sometimes that get me in trouble if I don't ask first.

I found that if I heat up the cup part of the die it makes it much easier to squirt the wire out. I can make about 10-15 pounds an hour depending on dia. wire I'm making. At the price of lead wire I figure it time well spent.

Bob

[Al Nyhus]

BadgerBob: Pure lead really isn't the most desireable for cores. I'd suggest a .5% (half a percent) to 1% antimony mix to harden the core material just a bit. There are several reasons for this.

For what it's worth...... -Al

[Intel6]

Another option is to trade the alloy for more pure lead. Casters are usually looking for alloyed lead and if they have soft PB they are looking to trade.

Neal in AZ

[clipperbill]

Hi
I think Ted Smith warns in your manual to use only pure lead because you run the risk if bulging your core seating die resulting in loose cores in finished bullets.
Also, looked at the elk you guys got in CO. Nice one!
Bye,

Bill

[BangPop]

BadgerBob: Pure lead really isn't the most desireable for cores. I'd suggest a .5% (half a percent) to 1% antimony mix to harden the core material just a bit. There are several reasons for this.

For what it's worth...... -Al I use 1/2% antimony. I visited Hornady two weeks ago and they had 3 different lead options on hand. Pure, 3% and 5% IIRC.

[BadgerBob]

What would be the advantage to using 3 or 5% alloy? Or are there disadvantages to them? It would be no problem to mix either.

Bob

[MIBULLETS]

They are only a tiny bit harder and cores made from the .5% seems to flow just a bit smoother to me. Most guys making BR bullets use the .5% I think.

I would think that the 3 and 5% are for heavier game bullets since they will be harder and slow down bullet expansion.

[J. Valentine]

Lets not forget that it all depends on what press and dies you are using.
Many with small diameter dies and converted reloading press will have trouble with hard alloy for cores .
Look at your system first and then ascertain what is suitable for what you have . Just because someone else can do something with his gear does not mean it will work for everyone.
Forcing your press and dies to handle harder lead is a good way to wear everything out quicker and that is just what the professionals want.
I don't believe there is any great advantage in harder alloy cores. For target work you don't need hard cores and for hunting just solder bond the pure lead cores anyway . I would not go over .5% in my hand press system .
What professionals do in a factory with huge transfer presses has little bearing on what a home swager can achieve in a small hand press.

[redrock ranger]

Crown Metals
Milwaukie, Wisconsin

No website but has a business listing,with some info. Google it.

This is where i have bought lead wire. Some well known makers purchase there lead blend.

They do answer inquires.

[george ulrich]

if you are going to use harder or should I say an alloy mix either tin or antimony you can use what you have but bleed holes will need to be larger.also pressure is the same to core seat jacket stretch is jacket stretch not really an issue as for pointing up that's a whole different story if you are producing bullets with core barely into ogive its not an issue but if you are running further up ogive than they will be lets say more difficult as in more handle pressure.i have used up to 6%tin with no real problems other than needing to make a different squirt die,also ditto for sierra they use up to 6%antimony oncertain bullets. george

[ray h]

George can a formed 17 cal bullet be lightly lubed and ran into a 17 point up die to slightly change the ogive and close the tip without loosening the core/jacket? Thanks

[MIBULLETS]

George can a formed 17 cal bullet be lightly lubed and ran into a 17 point up die to slightly change the ogive and close the tip without loosening the core/jacket? Thanks

I know you directed this to George, but I will add as well. You might be able to but you may very well stick a bullet in the point form die. The rule is, what goes in must be smaller than the hole in the die. If you put a .172 bullet into a hole that is supposed to form one at that diameter, you lose the spring back that allows easy ejection.

[MIBULLETS]

Lets not forget that it all depends on what press and dies you are using.
Many with small diameter dies and converted reloading press will have trouble with hard alloy for cores .
Look at your system first and then ascertain what is suitable for what you have . Just because someone else can do something with his gear does not mean it will work for everyone.
Forcing your press and dies to handle harder lead is a good way to wear everything out quicker and that is just what the professionals want.
I don't believe there is any great advantage in harder alloy cores. For target work you don't need hard cores and for hunting just solder bond the pure lead cores anyway . I would not go over .5% in my hand press system .
What professionals do in a factory with huge transfer presses has little bearing on what a home swager can achieve in a small hand press.

I completely agree. .5% is way different than the 3 or 5 that was mentioned.

[george ulrich]

if the bullet is a lower ogive #or blunter yes you can repoint without loosening core in a higher ogive die or pointier die,as stated before on a steel die I would want a small amount of bump up on carbide not so much you would be surprised at the br bullet makers that are swaging down slightly,these are hallof fame shooters. george

[george ulrich]

also on the harder cores if you want to try to squirt with smaller dia. holes,leave less material to squirt if I go over 1% I will only leave about .6 grs. to squirt the harder the material the less you need to squirt. george

[stephen perry 1]

I've read all the Posts on wire for making bullets. I am in the group that uses and recommends 1/2% antimony. Reason being is that I value my dies and don't want to take a chance of rupturing one them with higher antimony wire. Wire of higher antimony to me is for high production machines using dies with less tolerance than the high quality dies precision bullet makers use making bullets one at a time.

Now what Badger Bob has going on is for his needs. Congratulations Bob on your bullets. I wrote my Thread on bullet making for those that want to make precision bullets using the best equipment and materials available.

Stephen Perry

[BadgerBob]

Thank all of you for your posts, it seems to me that I might as well keep to pure lead. I'm not trying to make anything out of the ordinary I just want to make the best bullets possible with the equipment I have. So I think for the safety of my dies pure lead is the way to go for me. I have been looking for other old style SAS dies that would fit my press with no luck so far. So I had better take care of the dies I have.

I have found that I enjoy this hobby way to much to mess things up now. I just wish I had tried this years ago.

Bob

[george ulrich]

what caliber are you looking for? george

[BadgerBob]

I have 17 and 22 so just about anything else. Not much into pistols though. Im going to try and make a set, if it works out I should be set.

Bob

[Randy Robinett]

Unless your dies are defective (poor quality steel, or carbide), antimony/tin alloy cores won't harm your dies. I use wire of, up to 3% antimony and 1% tin, using both Niemi and Ulrich dies - I do this regularly. So, I agree with George (see his posts). Also, using 3/4 to 1% antimony will greatly reduce 'cored' jackets sticking on the core-seat punch, and make very uniform finished dimensions. In my opinion, for precision bullet making, "pure" (corroding grade) lead wire is the poorest choice, 1/2% is better, and, up to 1% is better still. RG

[BangPop]

They are only a tiny bit harder and cores made from the .5% seems to flow just a bit smoother to me. Most guys making BR bullets use the .5% I think.

I would think that the 3 and 5% are for heavier game bullets since they will be harder and slow down bullet expansion.That's correct. The harder cores are in game bullets to attempt to control expansion.

[BangPop]

Thank all of you for your posts, it seems to me that I might as well keep to pure lead. I'm not trying to make anything out of the ordinary I just want to make the best bullets possible with the equipment I have. So I think for the safety of my dies pure lead is the way to go for me. I have been looking for other old style SAS dies that would fit my press with no luck so far. So I had better take care of the dies I have.

I have found that I enjoy this hobby way to much to mess things up now. I just wish I had tried this years ago.

Bob Bob, as some of the others guy have said you won't harm your dies with alloyed lead. You will be able to make a much better quality bullets using a harder lead than pure.

[stephen perry 1]

Low antimony lead cores are what Berger uses to make their 22/6 BR bullets, not sure what % antimony they use for their other bullets they make. When I started making bullets back in 1995 I bought wire from Eric Stecker. I asked him what was correct wire to make BR bullets with J4 jackets. He sold me a couple 25# spools of 1/2 % antimony wire. When I bought 200# of wire from Lester Bruno he also recommended 1/2% antimony stating that's what he uses. Gary Ocock,Don Gentner, Allen Bench, and Lowell Frei all recommended 1/2% antimony wire for making 22/6 Bullets using J4 jackets. All these names are well known in the shooting and bullet making World.

Glad to hear from Al Nyhus, George Ulrich, J. Valentine, Randy Robinett, and others about using higher antimony lead wire. On Small Caliber new bullet makers need to hear both sides of using low antimony and higher antimony wire. Al and the others need to give more reasons for using higher antimony wire. Also there needs a few that make small caliber bullets less than 22 how do their operation. Bullet makers are a small but very knowledgeable group willing to share their knowledge.

Stephen Perry

[BadgerBob]

Well I think I'm going to mix up a batch of 1/2% and give it a shot so to speak. I just made up the punch and die to make 30gr. bullets for my 17's out of 22 long rifle cases. Its just my luck to get into this right when Berger discontinued a lot of there jackets. So if figure if I cant buy them I will make them. I have shot some of my lighter 22lr jackets up to 4000 fps with no problems...so far.

Thank all of you for your input.
Bob

[george ulrich]

[World.

Glad to hear from Al Nyhus, George Ulrich, J. Valentine, Randy Robinett, and others about using higher antimony lead wire. On Small Caliber new bullet makers need to hear both sides of using low antimony and higher antimony wire. Al and the others need to give more reasons for using higher antimony wire. Also there needs a few that make small caliber bullets less than 22 how do their operation. Bullet makers are a small but very knowledgeable group willing to share their knowledge.

Stephen Perry[/QUOTE]

Less bullet deforming in barrel at least with fb.many years ago when I started br shooting geza nagy was trying all kinds of experiments one we did was bullet deforming in barrels.his test was to shoot all different makes and styles ;fb,bt; and I measured differences after they were shot.bottom line was all fb expanded to groove dia. of barrels they were shot in but the bt's were all slightly smaller in dia. so later after wondering why I tried a little different spin on this and cut a barrel off just at chamber end.i was friends with local police chief and being a larger metro. area they had a great ballistics lab.shot and caught bullets in there tank.funny the fb base all deformed kinda like a mushroom on base then they would swage down as they passed through throat area.the bt. showed no deforming at all.so went to harder cores this minimized fb deforming.never looked back since then my preference is 1% on 22-6's I don't make so many 30's but I would increase if I did.also can't recall who tested with large %'s of tin or the amount but they basically matched the specific gravity of jacket mat. which takes all jacket tir out of the picture.also the other great thing about tin is it adheres mechanically to copper so if your concerned about core shift they won't. sorry for the length of this hope someone can get some use from it. george

[Randy Robinett]

[World.

Glad to hear from Al Nyhus, George Ulrich, J. Valentine, Randy Robinett, and others about using higher antimony lead wire. On Small Caliber new bullet makers need to hear both sides of using low antimony and higher antimony wire. Al and the others need to give more reasons for using higher antimony wire. Also there needs a few that make small caliber bullets less than 22 how do their operation. Bullet makers are a small but very knowledgeable group willing to share their knowledge.

Stephen Perry

Less bullet deforming in barrel at least with fb.many years ago when I started br shooting geza nagy was trying all kinds of experiments one we did was bullet deforming in barrels.his test was to shoot all different makes and styles ;fb,bt; and I measured differences after they were shot.bottom line was all fb expanded to groove dia. of barrels they were shot in but the bt's were all slightly smaller in dia. so later after wondering why I tried a little different spin on this and cut a barrel off just at chamber end.i was friends with local police chief and being a larger metro. area they had a great ballistics lab.shot and caught bullets in there tank.funny the fb base all deformed kinda like a mushroom on base then they would swage down as they passed through throat area.the bt. showed no deforming at all.so went to harder cores this minimized fb deforming.never looked back since then my preference is 1% on 22-6's I don't make so many 30's but I would increase if I did.also can't recall who tested with large %'s of tin or the amount but they basically matched the specific gravity of jacket mat. which takes all jacket tir out of the picture.also the other great thing about tin is it adheres mechanically to copper so if your concerned about core shift they won't. sorry for the length of this hope someone can get some use from it. george[/QUOTE]

George, how'd ya get so smart? I bet it wasn't from just doin' stuff, "the way it's always beenn done!" ;) Whatayagunnado - give away ALL of the secrets?!!? ;):eek:RG

[J. Valentine]

Thank all of you for your posts, it seems to me that I might as well keep to pure lead. I'm not trying to make anything out of the ordinary I just want to make the best bullets possible with the equipment I have. So I think for the safety of my dies pure lead is the way to go for me. I have been looking for other old style SAS dies that would fit my press with no luck so far. So I had better take care of the dies I have.

I have found that I enjoy this hobby way to much to mess things up now. I just wish I had tried this years ago.

Bob

I have one of those old SAS preses myself and it has an open top design . It is not as strong as even the later Corbin Silver press either the top strap model or the gold metal job of which I have both .
In small bullets like 17 you will be able to use 1 % or even more I should think but as the bullet diameter rises it gets more risky in an old press and dies . If you were using a Walnut Hill or Corbin Csp1 press then it's a different story.

[BadgerBob]

Hopefully it will be a different story soon, I just sent off for a press and dies from H-G. I guess if Im going to jump in I might as well jump in with both feet. I think I got in just in time, you cant buy a 22 center fire bullet anywhere in town.

Bob