Steel & Carblde Steel Bullet Making Dies

[stephen perry 1]

I would like to start this Thread and comment later. Like to hear from Gerry M, George Ulrich, Al Nyhus, J. Valentine, Randy Robinett and others with info. This should be a good discussion.

Stephen Perry

[J. Valentine]

What's the specific subject ? I am a bit baffled as to what you are asking.

[stephen perry 1]

J. most bullet makers know one or the other. Thought those that had experience with both could explain the use of both. Items like construction, use of lube, cost, longevity, makers, and other stuff.

Stephen Perry

[BadgerBob]

Again I'm new to all of this, but I have heard talk of Carbide bullet making dies. I would like to know the difference, I know there expensive and I doubt that I could ever afford a set but are they worth the extra expense? Will they last longer than steel dies (my dies where made in the 60's)? I just ordered a set of 20 cal dies, but what would I expect for cost if they where Carbide? Do they make a "better bullet" or more accurate bullet?

Oh ya one more thing when you get your finger in between the punch and the die and the handle falls, does it hurt as bad with Carbide? Just asking.

Bob

[george ulrich]

Stephen, as you know I do carbide,not to say I have never made steel,i have to me it's not as cost effective.but I probably should try steel again now that I've refined the process for carbide.or maybe play with some of the hybred carbide tool steel mixes.well lets see where this goes. george

[MIBULLETS]

I am using steel right now, but that's what I could afford. For my uses, I think they do just fine. Some differences I heard about steel vs carbide would be, you should use slightly more lube with steel. From what I understand the dies are made slightly different in respect to the way the point forming die is cut, mainly due to the hardness of the carbide die. Some say you can cut a better hole in tool steel, but it won't last as long. However the machining/cutting of carbide steel has come a long way and is very accurate as well. Note these are not my experiences, just things I've read and heard. Do you guys agree or disagree with any of it?

[Bayou City Boy]

Just a comment on longevity.

I have been using steel dies for quite a few years to swage my own 20 caliber bullets. The dies have been used a bunch and they still retain their original internal dimensions as far as a completed bullet goes. In a typical year I'll swage in the range of 700-1000 bullets using them.

If I was doing bullet swaging for a living and producing bullets in large quantities, I would probably invest in the more expensive carbide dies for their longer life.

For me, the steel dies that I have for my own use will probably last a lot longer than I will.

JMO - BCB

[george ulrich]

[ Some differences I heard about steel vs carbide would be, you should use slightly more lube with steel. From what I understand the dies are made slightly different in respect to the way the point forming die is cut, mainly due to the hardness of the carbide die. Some say you can cut a better hole in tool steel, but it won't last as long. However the machining/cutting of carbide steel has come a long way and is very accurate as well. Note these are not my experiences, just things I've read and heard. Do you guys agree or disagree with any of it?[/QUOTE]

I guess it comes down to a couple of things.First would be cost,steel dies work fine good for around 250k or so carbide your into millions of bullets.so if you decide to sell out then the steel dies with a fair amount of use really won't bring much on the flip side carbide with a fair amount lets say 500k still have plenty of life.as for the manf. side I don't see any difference but I do mine different and would grind the steel ones also.which is really the only way to produce a round hole anyway. george

[Randy Robinett]

[ Some differences I heard about steel vs carbide would be, you should use slightly more lube with steel. From what I understand the dies are made slightly different in respect to the way the point forming die is cut, mainly due to the hardness of the carbide die. Some say you can cut a better hole in tool steel, but it won't last as long. However the machining/cutting of carbide steel has come a long way and is very accurate as well. Note these are not my experiences, just things I've read and heard. Do you guys agree or disagree with any of it?

I guess it comes down to a couple of things.First would be cost,steel dies work fine good for around 250k or so carbide your into millions of bullets.so if you decide to sell out then the steel dies with a fair amount of use really won't bring much on the flip side carbide with a fair amount lets say 500k still have plenty of life.as for the manf. side I don't see any difference but I do mine different and would grind the steel ones also.which is really the only way to produce a round hole anyway. george[/QUOTE]

I have owned (and still own) several sets of "steel" dies, as well as carbide dies, made by both Bill Niemi, and George Ulrich: with "good" jackets, all have made excellent bullets: capable of competing in registered group/score BR tournaments.

There are subtle differences - mostly regarding the amount of lube required, but, for a given die-set, that (lube) may vary from jacket Lot-to-Lot and, lube Lot-to-Lot. For either type of die material, I consider lube a necessary evil, using just enough to prevent bullets from sticking in the dies . . . some people prefer that their bullets "almost fall out of the die" . . and, their bullets still shoot . . . as with most things, there's a LOT of wiggle-room and few, if any, absolutes. RG

P.S. No, none of my steel die-sets are for sale.

[aaronraad]

I understand that most carbide dies work on a design with a carbide insert with a tool steel threaded housing.

Given the insert is a 'press fit', the engineer in me says the carbide insert should be finished with a radius on the 'buried' end. How do those carbide die makers among you finish the carbide insert?

I believe there is quite a 'crack' that takes place when the insert is press fitted into place. What size press do you use to perform the press-fit; and what tolerances do you use for the press fit?

[george ulrich]

I understand that most carbide dies work on a design with a carbide insert with a tool steel threaded housing.

Given the insert is a 'press fit', the engineer in me says the carbide insert should be finished with a radius on the 'buried' end. How do those carbide die makers among you finish the carbide insert?

I believe there is quite a 'crack' that takes place when the insert is press fitted into place. What size press do you use to perform the press-fit; and what tolerances do you use for the press fit?

a small radius on lead in end with a lead to make sure insert pushes in straight. generally .003-.004 interference. I have increased to .009 to salvage old dies that needed to have a smaller i.d.. not to much of a crack when doing new dies, press 20 ton I think not sure I don't look as long as there going in. george

[Utah Shooter]

I do not mean to step on any toes here but I would have a question as to coating a normal steel die? Would it make the steel dies last longer?

[george ulrich]

probably some type of nitriding would put a thin barrier .0003-.0005 which would be a help,hard chrome is to difficult to get it into a small any deeper than the i.d. of die. at makes the only problem I see with nitriding is you should relap die afterwards so you are removing some of the nitriding, also theres the extra cost involved I don't think its real bad but its more time and more cost.nitriding would make die harder per say but the grain structure is still there which is what makes steel dies harder to operate as compared to carbide which starts as a powdered metal actually are small spheres that are pressed under heat and pressure with a binder to form.think of it as sliding your foot on a cement driveway,and then sliding on same driveway with ice on it. george

[Al Nyhus]

I had one of my Blackmon point up dies melonited. The lube requirements and type of lube are totally different from the standard die.

Melonite treated (lt), standard (rt):

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v467/tenxal/d1-1.jpg

[stephen perry 1]

Al
Is melonite a form of nitriding? And was there a significant change in bullet measurement before and after. My guess your Blackmon should hold their measurements for your bullet making career.

Al I really enjoyed this Thread. The guys did a good job in comparing steel to carbide dies. I have 2 carbide sets a Simonson 6 and Rorhschach 22 set and a Bahler 22 set. Given the longevity of stainless I would go with either.

As far as stainless holding it's bullet tolerance I asked Jim Folwell how his stainless were holding up. He mentioned after 100,000 bullets maybe .0001 wear. But that was the best as he could measure.

As far as commercial, Sierra back in the 70's started converting some of their dies to carbide. Ferris Pindell and Arvie Martin were the designers and machinist that brought carbide dies to the industry.

Anymore info on stainless or carbide would be appreciated. There is more info in books The Ultimate in Rifle Precision, The Benchrest Shooting Primer and The Accurate Rifle and articles in 'Rifle' and 'Handloader' and other sources.

Stephen Perry

[george ulrich]

Stephen, Ferris never did any carbide all were made from graph-mo. tool steel.as for the carbide ross Sherman and Clarence detsch were making during the late 60's. have a good holiday george p.s. melonite is a type of carburizing

[stephen perry 1]

George I was referring to what happened at Sierra with carbide. Not aware what part Ferris or Arvie played in bringing carbide to Sierra though I have more references to Arvie.

As far as what Ferris did on his own equipment I find no reference to carbide dies. To me the longevity of steel served Ferris needs.

Thanks for the reference of Sherman and Detsch making carbide dies. George one thing interests me. Is the carbide insert drilled for the bullet size before inserted in the die or after.

Stephen Perry

[george ulrich]

Stephen, dies at least what I do start out as a preform, in other words the carbide is rough formed on outside and bullet shape is rough formed on inside I allow about .020. to finish o.d. and about .020 on i.d. I specify a .02-.03 thru hole to finish for ejec. pin. o.d is banded then finish ground to size, i.d. is roughed on edm then I rough to lapping size by internal grinding. next preliminary lap to within .0002 push in body allow to rest (i.d. will move alittle) then finish lap. hope this explains the steps. george

[J. Reynolds]

Gentlemen,
I have seen reference on another forum(Benchrest.com) to a book presumably about bullet swaging' by either Ray Biehler, Walt Astles or both. If any of you can provide information on such a book, it would be a great help as I am trying to obtain it. Obviously actual title, publisher, publication date or exact author would be a tremendous help.
Thanks!

[stephen perry 1]

What you saw on BR Central was a Bullet Thread where Gerry M. referred to the B&A book he has. Since the book is out of print I suggest you try Abebooks, one word. I have bought the Whelen book The Ultimate in Rifle Precision. The book has several sections on bullet swaging including a section on B&A dies, mine is a Third Edition. Anything written B or A should be searched by author as I don't know of a title by B&A.

Stephen Perry

[george ulrich]

I have copies of all b&a literature I can copy and send if you want its basic instructions on die setup and lube and such. george

[aaronraad]

If you manage to get any of the B&A swaging die info into electronic format I'd appreciate anything you're able to share.

I'll read just about anything I get my hands onto at the moment.

Looking for info on draw & trim die design at the moment also. Trying to get a 1.25"-1.35" 257 cal jacket. Need to pick the right J4 jacket to start with to ensure correct length + ? to ensure the pinch trim works 100%.

[george ulrich]

I guess I can try to scan and send also have rorshach original directions.the draw dies are fairly simple and straight forward.the pinch trim die is alittle more complex not saying they can't be made, they can with standard machine equipment. theres just quite of few parts to make. george

[aaronraad]

probably some type of nitriding would put a thin barrier .0003-.0005 which would be a help,hard chrome is to difficult to get it into a small any deeper than the i.d. of die. at makes the only problem I see with nitriding is you should relap die afterwards so you are removing some of the nitriding, also theres the extra cost involved I don't think its real bad but its more time and more cost.nitriding would make die harder per say but the grain structure is still there which is what makes steel dies harder to operate as compared to carbide which starts as a powdered metal actually are small spheres that are pressed under heat and pressure with a binder to form.think of it as sliding your foot on a cement driveway,and then sliding on same driveway with ice on it. george

I bought a Caswell Electroless Nickel (EN) Boron kit to do my new Barnard Model P magnum action (4340 steel). I specifically got the EN kit containing Boron, as I believe the Boron gives much better results than EN kits with PFTE for friction which wear too quickly.

From experience, basic EN's can be hardened to +60 HRC with heat treatment. I'll ask the queston of my local EN plating expert, to see what he thinks of coating tool steels and tolerances.

[george ulrich]

aaron, I have worked with e.n. when I worked on the outside it did help with wear resistance, but also seemed draggy for no better word at the moment. also have tried ptfe coatings these were very slick, but at the time same as chrome were very limited on depth vs. dia. I still feel ferro-tic might be a better choice over steel and not as costly as full carbide. I have a couple of pieces here just need time to mess around. george

[aaronraad]

I caught up with my local EN expert. He said the EN+PTFE solutions were almost impossible to apply correctly. I mentioned the EN+Boron Nitride solution and he commented that solution aggitation, BN grade and BN concentration were important. He gave me some 20-30 nm BN to try.

The NRL seem to be making some good progress with interstitial hardening (IH) of stainless steels with carbides. Producing a 20-30 um layer on 316L with a HV of 1100 (off the HRC scale). I saw a presentation by Paul Natishan in November last year that showed even under severe deformation, the hardened layer did not thin out or crack. They are focused on corrosion protection, but I can see IH possibly being applied to tool steels.

[george ulrich]

20-30- microinches sounds like perfect amount and hardness sounds excellent how is finish when done tinitride is harder but actually has a higher coeffiecent than uncoated. I have some boron nitride powder around somewhere. it was being tried in barrels to cut fouling didn't seem to go far though. george

[aaronraad]

Here is a public link to the hardending of stainless http://www.swagelok.com.au/downloads/webcatalogs/EN/ltcss%20article.pdf

Might be a useful process for die material. Probably more useful for 416R barrel wear and corrossion actually?

[TinMan]

I've been reading the mail here for some time, and it has been very interesting. I don't make bullets, but have worked (metallurgist) in most of the industries you have been discussing, including carbides, tool steels, titanium, PM parts and specialty wear resistant coatings.

Personally, I would be concerned about using a very thin coating (IH) of any reasonably loaded 316 SS. I will read the Swagelok article tomorrow. You need to have the proper substrate hardness to support the coating. Think of it this way, if you step on a piece glass on a hard floor, you can probably step on it safely without breaking it. If you step on a piece of glass on top of a pillow, or some rags, you will probably break it. The design of good conversion coatings like the nitrides and carbonitrides have to be supported by the substrate alloy, same as TiN and TiC coatings done by PVD , CVD or cathodic arc. If you ever do go solid carbide dies, try to be careful of the cobalt content, whch can run from 2% to 20%, and that greatly affects the hardness and toughness of the carbide. The carbide grains size is another big factor, and for the fine finishes, strength and hardness, using a "sub-micron" tungsten carbide grain might a good choice. Hope this might help some.

[george ulrich]

that's a good point I didn't even consider, but being I only make carbide its really not an issue to me, and you are right on with colbalt content I prefer 8% micrograin its pretty easy to work wears well and doesn't seem to have flaking issues that the lower % colbalt have.still would like to see if I could use ferro-tic for a less expensive alternative.thanks for the input george

[TinMan]

George, I looked at Ferro-tic years ago. maybe 25 or so, but I can't remember about what steels were used for the matrix. I will see if I can find anything to add info. As I remember, the TiC grains are pretty fine and the grains are more rounded. Might be helpful for your application.

[george ulrich]

the older where an a-2 or d-2 matrix. now they have a titanium matrix which interests me even more. the down side is its miserable to mach. have to run at around 25 sfm. less relief on reamers isn't a big deal being I grind my own.but you still have to make them. i'm just thinking of a less expensive vs wear compared to carbide vs steel. a lot of shooters do not make the quantity that others or commercial mfgs. do. I think this will increase die life as compared to steel. I would be interested in your thoughts on this. george

[TinMan]

George, sorry I haven't gotten back to you until now. I missed your comment somewhere along the line. RE: the titanium matrix for the FerroTic. I will have to do some more digging/researching. Using the TiC particles should be fine, but I don't like the idea of using a titanium matrix for any highly loaded application like a die appication. Titanium is strong and light, but its galling resistance (highly loaded wear) is horrible. In turbine engine uses, any of the attachment points (dovetails) for fan and compressor blades are ALWAYS coated with specially formulated baked on epoxy coatings loaded with molybdenum disulfide (MoS2) dry film lubes. If the lube wears through, the parts then gall and seize/weld up/or some other malfunction. With time, the galling and pitting starts fatigue cracks and the parts start beaking. Not a good thing.

I would think one of the stronger or harder FerroTic steel matrix alloys would be a better obvious choice than titanium for the matrix. Obviously, try it if you want, it will just be the cost of the dies. Keep in mind, the modulus (stiffness) of titanium is less than steel, and the modulus of tungsten carbide is higher than even steel. The high modulus means it deforms elastically less under load. That is one of the reasons carbide is used for highly loaded die-type applications like can forming and wire drawing.

Hope this helps some.

[george ulrich]

tinman, the tic would be a carbide matrix, I think with the finish we are making in dies around 2um I don't know if galling is a problem maybe when I get a chance i'll make some. the problem with carbide is it doesn't take internal pressure well that's why we shrink press into steel bodies already have screwed up with not enough interference and had carbide crack. look forward to more input from you. george

[TinMan]

Yes, we used to use a steel shrink fit strongback for the carbide drawing dies. And I remember we did have to put a surprising amount of shrink fit into it. In fact, even had a PC program in Basic (back in '84 or '85) that one of the guys I worked with wrote for doing the shrink fits, but it is long gone. I know the equations and design info were were based on a pamphet from Kennametal. Unfortunately, I had to throw out a bunch of stuff a year or two ago, but I hope I kept that. If I still have it, it will be in one of two places. I will let you know if something useful turns up. I will try to find it tomorrow.

[stephen perry 1]

George
You must be familiar with Arvie Martin Califonia Sierra Bullets smart die maker. Some of the story goes back probably in the 60's he tooled several of Sierra's carbide dies. Of coarse he worked with Ferris while being there, What say George.

Stephen

[george ulrich]

Stephen, I only know the name, when I lived in Indiana Igot to know ferris fairly well i'm sure either he or another friend that worked at sierra when located in cal. must have mentioned him. george tinman, I have figured you are from an engineering backround so maybe you won't be surprised at how much carbide shrink's internally when assem. I have taken dies that were considered worn out reground to a thinner wall increased intellrference and have shrunk i.d. by .0015 allowing to relap and make die useable again. its not something I enjoy doing as the wall thickness gets pretty thin and with increased press its nerve wrecking when all's pressed together hoping not to crack the carbide.

[TinMan]

George, sorry, but I could not find the reference I recalled, It must have been tossed when I had to downsize. I kept the texts and typical technical refernce books, but a lot of the trade literature had to go. Given what has happened to the metals industry, a lot of the companies are long gone. My background is metallurgical, 35+ years in specialty metals, coatings and aerospace/aviation.

I have a suggestion. Have you tried using both cold and heat to assemble the carbide die inserts? For some special turbine engine assembly procedures, the ID parts are cooled with dry ice/alcohol baths or liquid nitrogen to shrink them thermally and the OD parts are warmed to moderate temperatures to expand them. The parts are machined very closely to allow them to slip together (very quickly) without pressing them together with any major force. Works slick when the different materials have different thermal expansion rates.

[george ulrich]

yes I don't really have trouble until its a rework on a older die, I do literally hundreds per year I have only had one crack in 30 yrs or so of doing bullet dies. funny I used to do parts for ge aircraft we did the same as you except used liquid nitrogen to shrink. when I say a lot of interference on the reworks i'm talking .007-.009 press on about a .500 dia piece. george

[TinMan]

Wow, that is a lot of interference, and requires some precision and care in prep. Your dies must have had much thinner steel parts than the wire draw dies I have seen. Their steel parts were pretty beefy, to make them more damage proof.

[george ulrich]

as I said that's only for wore out dies that I must shrink, use 3 steps where ogive and ejection pin are located 1st step is just a "0" fit for alignment 2nd is standard .003 press with body at .007-.009 this allows part align and gradually press/ shrink together carbide is ground down to around .100-.090 wall die body is standard 7/8 14. this has worked a few times but i'm not real comfortable doing all the time I would hate to break and owe a free die to someone. it really surprised me the first one I did how the carbide shrunk and the threads only moved around .002 larger. george

[stephen perry 1]

George
Junk metal becomes good metal when a quality machinist get's his hands on it and recovers it. You must be the quality guy George. Everybody else are the followers. Ferris had plenty of followers too.

Stephen Perry

[george ulrich]

Stephen, thanks ,I kind of think outside of the box on a lot of things. george