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204TIM
10-14-2006, 03:26 PM
Hello
O.K. what I thinking is a cartridge like the 17 or 20 hornet or smaller in size to squirrel hunt and small varmints with a affective range out to maybe 200yds more would be nice and mild report so I don't have to wear hearing protection. Guess I looking for something between a 17HMR and a 204ruger more closer to a 17HMR but more accurate. On a savage S.A. receiver with the magazine useable repeatable?. Just a thought how short could a 204ruger case be shortened to say O.A.L. 1.0 to 1.5 and be cycle thu a savage S.A receiver . The 17ccm does not look pausible for me because of the brass.
Yes I already know that I am crazy.:D thinks Tim

A 221 fireball neck down would this be the answer ?

montdoug
10-14-2006, 04:15 PM
Tim there are a number of small rounds that that would fill the bill in my mind right up till you talk squirrel and if you plan on eating the squirrels the list shortens real fast.
The other thing I have to mention is in my opinion there is no firearm made except possibly air rifles that can be safely shot without hearing protection. I'm saying that as a guy that has a permanent ringing 24-7 that sounds like a loud tea pot whistling right behind my left ear and at times I can't hear the phone ring. The ear doctors tells me to protect what I've got left cause according to him "after what I've done to my ears no hearing aid in the world will help". Rock concerts in the 60's probably played into it all.
The lecture endeth.
The .17 Ackley Hornet comes to mind as a personal favorite and must have vermin dispatcher, again right up till your trying to shoot edible small game or shoot with out hearing protection. Also the .20 K-Hornet with the same caveats. The .17 MachIV, .20 VarTarg something like a .17 or .20 Killer Bee, the list is endless if you don't want to eat em.
I guess you could load the .17 Ackley way down with a 25 grain match Berger and make head shots to eat the squirrels but it's still a real rifle and IMO hearing protection is a must.
Keep us posted what ya decide on.

P.S.
Did I leave any gray areas or confusion about how I feel about hearing protection (don't get me started on eye protection).

Daryl
10-14-2006, 05:18 PM
My feelings on this topic, if including things you want to eat, coincide pretty much with Doug's.
: Overall, the .17AH might be the ringer here, but to restrict it to 200yards seems a shame. For us up here, the .17AH and .17AB take over past 240 yards and become our long range ground squirrel rounds. The HMR does the job at the closeer ranges to 200-240yards or so.
; As Kenny had shown us, a very cmall charge of bullseye, somewhere around 2.5 and 4gr. with a 20gr. Vmax takes care of close, edible game, to full power loads using H4227, VN!20, 1680 and Lil'Gun for the long range stuff. POIs can be very close through it all, depending on the gun.

sicero
10-15-2006, 06:34 AM
I never had any idea there so many guys wanting to shoot edible squirrels in the body. Waiting for the right kind of shot is real good practice for other kinds of hunting. Just my 2cnt wrth. Kenny

Ladobe
10-15-2006, 08:27 PM
Many great points already made that I also concur with.

I too lost much of my hearing in the 60's (Nam and the Summer of Love San Francisco). And like Doug it is not repairable nor helpable with hearing aides. I don't have the ringing Doug does, but I can't hear some important (to me) things anymore... like birds singing, rattlesnakes buzzing, etc. Back when I was married it came in handy sometimes though, but that is the only advantage of going deaf. So even though I don't follow my own advise, I do strongly suggest everyone else use hearing protection to shoot (even airguns) every time you shoot or risk ending up like Doug and I.

If I was going to eat a squirrel to be shot at 200 yards, I'd probably opt for one of my 17HMR's. Don't understand your "more accurate" comment because a good one is certainly capable of even head shots at that range all else being considered. All 3 of mine have proved themselves in the ground squirrel fields (no tree rats where I live) well beyond that range. If you can live with a little less range, the 17M2's are another choice.

If using a centerfire it would be one of my 17 Ackley Hornets for sure. Head shots at that range and well beyond are almost gimmee's with a good rig and shooter that knows his firearm. Still the most fun to shoot cartridge of anything I have ever owned and loaded for.

Don't have one myself, but a 17 or 20 Squirrel might be a compromise between the two above.

Luck whatever you choose.

L.

204TIM
10-16-2006, 02:40 AM
thanks
hearing protection is understood . Now what about a savage short action cycling a (17,20,22) hornet from the magazine would anybody know if it will work I know that there would be some modifications to be made . I just love my savage rifles. They're better and nicer rifles around. I'm just hooked on savage. O.K. the big big problem 17,20,22 hornet or 17,20,22 K-hornet.

just in case the above don't pan out.
what would it take to shorten a 204 case down from 1.840 to .800 as in dies and such things.Or shorten a 221 fire ball from 1.400 to .800 maybe?

thank you tim

montdoug
10-16-2006, 08:56 AM
Ladobe you bring back many memories some good some not so much. The Asian vacation, Jefferson Airplane, Cream, Inagodadavida, Jimi Hendrix. Lots-a noise!
Wow man, far out! Keep this quiet around my kids and grandkids ok? :o .

Tim I can't speak to your Savage attraction, I'm a CZ kinda guy myself. I will say that any of the improved Hornet cases are likely to feed like Mary Kate Olsen, not very good and not very often. I did a fair amount of fiddling with CZ magazines and even tried one of Daryls and one of Jim Calhoons for my .17 Ackley Hornet and at best it's sub satisfactory. I settled on Jim Calhoons single shot follower that works extremely well. I wear a shirt with two pockets, ones for loaded rounds and the empties go in the other. Savage might be different but I'd be surprised. Plus which even if they feed the magazines are all so short the plastic tipped bullets are about a foot from the lands unless you have your rifle made with zero freebore (which I did).
The more I mess with magazines the more I like single shots.

gunhaus
10-16-2006, 12:06 PM
It might be difficult to set up the savage with a hornet bolt face. I would suggest a plain old 221 fireball. You can load the Sierra 40 gr HP to 2100-2200 with a number of powders. This bullet has a fairly tough jacket, and is quite friendly to edible game at these speed. And, it can be darn accurate too boot. As a plus, you have the full power FB at your disposal when ever you want it. It's cheap, and easy, and you can always set up the rifle later on as a switch barrel with a 17M4 and a Vartarg, and . . . well you get the idea. Have fun. -John

tim simbari
10-16-2006, 12:54 PM
I would suggest you rethink the .17ccm. Brass is around if you look for the good Fiocchi, if not Schroeder stuff is fine and reasonable. I have both, no problems.

Ladobe
10-16-2006, 05:39 PM
Doug - No doubt the Haight District and all the best bands of the era rocked in the 60's/70's in SF, and I rocked right along with them at all the concerts, etc. How about "Hair" at the Geary Theater? Met the lady I spent 34 years with at a Golden Gate Park love-in '68 while still at UCB. We did the Monterey Festivals too and moved to Carmel in '71. The Asian vacation is better forgot though - easier to explain the hippie era to the kids than Nam.

Tim S - Another good choice. Have a very close friend who shoots the CCM's. He's had several of them and getting good brass seems to be the key. Well remember his custom single-shot XP-100 rifle in 17CCM and how hard it was to load... but he shot it exceptionally well. I spotted for him while shooting it at one of our GS shoots about 5-6 years ago, and he could do head shots with amazing regularity to about 350 with it on the small squirrels.

georgeld
10-17-2006, 06:20 AM
Doug/Ladobe:

I'm 62 now, when I was 15, a bunch of us in several p/ups and couple cycle's were roaring across the prairies chasing coyotes. I was in the middle of an old '50 Ford pickup. How many remember how small those cabs were?? Stick shift of course, so had a dodge 'em game going with that thing.

The A/H on the right had his '06 muzzle up. Windows up, it went off between us and burned my shoulder. My ears have been roaring ever since. Talk about radical, just get in and put your rifle muzzle up and see how long you can stand my tirade!!

Hearing loss won't never come back, nor will the tinitus let up either. Most of my working and play life has been around stock cars, loud cars, OTR trucks for almost a million miles, and heavy equipment without mufflers, or very little of one. My hearing loss is over 80% on top of it all.

Just two weeks ago after a battle since '73, finally got VA to provide a pair of fancy high dollar jobs (custom Swiss made.) Tell you guys what, after all these years of not hearing the phone. It blasted me out of the saddle the first night! Doorbell's as bad and don't think I'd ever heard it before. I can hear the dogs barking for blocks, airplanes are mighty loud, I even heard the neighbors arguing the other day.

Shucks, I can even hear my girl friend talking now. My whole world has changed. BUT, that blasted ringing hasn't let up. At least these things don't amplify that.

Never got into the R&R stuff, but, drove around your neighborhood in SF in '67 gawking at you animals, hehe! Hope you all had a lot of fun and didn't pick up anything you regret.

Month ago shooting the M2 for the first time, out the trk window. I thought it was loud without protection so put the plugs in. AND that's quiet compared to a centerfire. Tell you what man, don't be stupid like some of us were!!

Hearing protection hasn't been around much over 20 yrs or so. Those of us that did try to plug 'em up used TP, or kleenex when we thought of it. Thats why so many of us older people are so deaf. I just can't believe the idiots with those vibrating two foot speakers in cars shaking the whole block. Same as I can't believe the young gal's going braless now days either. When I was in school the had 'em mounted up around their chest and armpit high and looked mighty fine. Nothing compared to the belly hangers on 20yr olds like now. How about it guys?? Anyone agree with me?

montdoug
10-17-2006, 08:36 AM
Why George I can't imagine what ever you could mean, do 20 year old females actually dress that way? I guess I've just never noticed ;) . Wanna buy a bridge in Frisco?
Ladobe how bout Steppenwolf, Credence or the Dead at the Fillmore or Fillmore East? Had a fellow recently released Jarhead buddy had a 383 Roadrunner I had a 650 BSA Lightning. We hadn't cut our hair since our discharge but we were a long way from the peace and love crowd. More like long haired rednecks with an attitude issue, a love of fast machinery and an appreciation for loud music, along with a propensity for mind altering substances (glad I got over that one). Totally rearanged a few guys perception of what long haired hippies were supposed to act like when harrassed Heh-Heh-Heh, "suprise-suprise" they ain't all peace, love and tolerance.
Fortunately we all mellow with age (or so we hope). Look at the venerable old Hornet and Bee rounds better than ever today and terrific platforms for then unimagined wildcats like the new .20 Killer Bee (this one has a future!). It's another one that would fill the bill Tim.
Don't ya love the tinitus George? Especially when ya put in the ear plugs and all ya hear is the buzzing. Oh well, Don't mean nothing. As long as your looking at the flowers and not the roots it's a number one day!

(Not to be the pushy type Tim but do consider a CZ while thinking Savage, might be you'd be pleasantly suprised). When I first got my CZ .22Hornet to convert to a .17 Ackley hornet I wanted to shoot it first to establish a baseline. Kind of a before and after deal. Without working up a load I grabbed a box of 50 for my Anschutz Hornet they chambered nicely and weren't a hot load so off we went. This is one of the first 5 shoot 100 yard groups fired with an arbitrary load.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/montdoug/PhotoImpression4.jpg

Here's the results after being reborn as a .17 Ackley Hornet.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v514/montdoug/fba6f900.jpg

Just a consideration Tim as I believe they are about the same money, but a guy likes what he likes so I'm sure not running down your choice.