Rifle to rifle differences in load data a cause for caution.

[montdoug]

I got my new Small Caliber News yesterday, good issue. Lot's of small caliber stuff. (Great article Alex).
In reading some of the articles as well as letters to the editor I was again struck by the same thing I find on the internet, rifle to rifle load data varies hugely and caution is always in order no matter what the source.
Two examples were, one the letter where an individual was getting 3,848fps with a 30 grain bullet in a .17 MachIV when in my MachIV 3,850ish is all of it with a 25 grainer.
The other was in Todds data on the VarTarg with a 32 grain bullet using N120. His top load was 19 grains and while I've only used N120 a little in my VarTarg I've used it enough to know 19 grains of the lot I have would be "way" over the top with a 32grainer in my rifle.
Lot to lot powder varience can't be overstated it would appear as are rifle to rifle variances.
As a long time reloader of bigger stuff it is obvious to me the smaller cases and smaller bores must be a lot more critical to such changes than I was used to in .223 and up stuff.
I can't get the image of Mntngoats rifle or Randy Mertas eye out of my mind.
The max load of my lot of H4198 in my Tact.20 for example using a 33 grainer is near three grains lighter than what I've seen published in a small caliber load book.

The stuff I read today just reinforced how different those writers experiences with their rifles and powder lots were from my own.
I guess we can't be too careful huh?

[foxhunter]

about people wanting other peoples pet accuracy loads, the post went unanswered. i had a guy blow a 22 br into peaces with what was a safe accurate load in my rifle. he wasn't even party to the conversation, he just overheard it, wrote down the load and proceeded to load an hand grenade.

different powder lots, barrel twist, diameter, brand of brass, brand of bullet and chamber throats and the list goes on and on, can cause just wreck your hole day, not to mention your health.

don't be surprised if this is a short thread.

[Cajun Blake]

CAUTION CAUTION CAUTION

i couldn't agree with you more Doug !!! The small calibers are fun to shoot although the slightest reloading error can cause serious damage. I cringe :eek: everytime I see TK's data b/c i know many of his published loads are NOT possible in my rifles. TK's roots began in benchrest where many shooters push the envelope looking for the perfect balance between speed and accuracy.

In reality, the lust for speed in small calibers is like juggling chainsaws !! Not paying attention to the smallest of details can be catastrophic. One thing reloaders tend to overlook and is rarely mentioned in media print is how elevation, temperature, and humidity can lead to spikes in pressure. This is even more critical in small bore rifles. For example, TK lives in Ohio and his 17AH data may be safe at 68 degrees with 40% humidity. That same published data reloaded by myself in SW Louisiana or BCB over in Houston could be mind-blowing (literally) in 95 degree weather with 100% humidity.

Just my opinion as I concur with your POV Doug.

enjoy your weekend ,

CB <*)))>{

[Gary in Illinois]

I'm not sure that access to all the reloading information via the internet is a good thing for all reloaders. It seems that some people just don't "get it." They think that because a load was safe in one rifle (or at least someone SAID it was safe), it should work in their rifle. They don't understand that reloading data is not portable from one rifle to another.

A friend of mine loaded a Kimber Mach IV to pressues that blew the follower out of the magazine. He seemed to be happy that he reached the magic 4,000 fps level with a 25 grain bullet and doesn't realize how close he came to disaster.

He just can't seem to comprehend the relationship between bullet weight, small bores and small powder charge increases. He used to think nothing of increasing powder charges in .5 grain increments and used different brands of primers interchangeably when loading for the Mach IV. He ignored my warnings to move more slowly saying that he was STARTING at .5 grains below the maximum load he could find in whatever manual showed the most powder used in a given cartridge. Thankfully he no longer loads for the .17 caliber rounds and he still has his eyes and hands!

I know that I don't understand why seemingly identical rifles with identical barrels shooting identical loads can vary so widely in the resulting velocities. I do know that each rifle has its own requirements, that each one must be treated as unique and must have maximum loads tailored for it.

We all need to be reminded periodically of what can happen when we relax too much with this hobby or push the envelope too rapidly.

Gary

[Old Goat]

Well put by all.
Reloading for the subs with loads taken from the internet or anywhere should start at minimum and be taken from there with a grain of salt. Or in the real world-- 1/10 grain of powder at a time. Life's to short to have it altered with a dumb mistake because Joe Blow said it would be O K..(Remimber his last name)
All things are NOT equal in the world of explosives!!!
Later
O.G.

[Daryl]

We must be always aware that we are dealing with sub-calibres. They are a law unto themselves. Witness my old .17AB for example, using Re#7, lot # 2500 - worked up from 2 gr. below the top load, went 3,940fps with 25gr. HP's.

: My new .17AckBee, when using some 3,800fps fireform loads, locked it up and went 4,150fps instead of 3,800fps.

They are to be respected for sure

.
: Gives me the willies every time a new shooter wants info on building up a wildcat along with loads he should use, and he hasn't loaded anything.:eek:

[montdoug]

It would seem we all agree.
I think one of the big offenders is a blind quest for a specific listed velocity. A guy reads a specific velocity attributed to a round somewhere so he goes to chasing it and doesn't pay attention to the basics.
Not to point fingers but on occasion a newly created round written about in Small Caliber News is touted as a round that gets "x" velocity and is a panacea of some kind to fill all varminting needs. An example would be the Tact.20 that was originally touted heavily as a 4,350fps round. That's 200fps faster than remotely possible to duplicate safely in my rifle whose working load is 4,150fps. At 500 yards with that extra 200fps with all the risk involved and with the rifle sighted dead on at 250 it would gain about 2 inches less drop. So for 2 inches at 500 yards a guy risks "explosions, shards, surgerys and eye patches" or worse, it makes no sense. If a guy has to have that two inches it's a perfect excuse for a new rifle, make mine a .20BR.
Everyone has their own opinion, mine is the ".20 VarTarg" while one of my all time rat rifle favorites in a huge way is still not an effective humane 500 yard rifle, maybe I need shooting lessons. The Tact.20 or .204 with 40grainers are, the .20 BR "SURE" is, the VarTarg with 32's isn't. Just my opinion and we all know about opinions.
When I go p-dog hunting I take multiple rifles like a golf bag full of clubs. I don't feel the need to make a round shoot way faster than it oughta. I like buying new guns!
I'll get off my soapbox now, "sorry"! I just don't want to see anyone hurt.

[Larry in VA]

Maybe one of our esteemed Administrators could make this thread a SAFETY STICKY THINGY or somethin so it stays at top and any and all can see it. Who knows it may even save an eyeball or two.:eek:
Larry

[Dan C]

Maybe one of our esteemed Administrators could make this thread a SAFETY STICKY THINGY or somethin so it stays at top and any and all can see it. Who knows it may even save an eyeball or two.:eek:
Larry


Good stuff here guys, I agree this thread ought to remain at the top. Most of those that have been at this awhile have experienced an overload, and it's a scene best avoided. Please consider all data sources, use a chronograph when possible when working with new rifles or components, and start low.

[RareBear]

Regarding Todd Kindler's load data and generally speaking, a lot of the data Todd puts in black and white mentions the use of SPL bullet lubricant. This may account for the higher powder charges (not neccessarily higher velocities) reported as compared to naked bullet use.

[457ciSBC]

Regarding Todd Kindler's load data and generally speaking, a lot of the data Todd puts in black and white mentions the use of SPL bullet lubricant. This may account for the higher powder charges (not neccessarily higher velocities) reported as compared to naked bullet use.



I asked Todd if SPL behaves the same way as moly concerning pressures and powder charges and he told me no.

Mike

[muzr257]

One of the things that most people for get with reloading manuals is the MOST critical word- guide - its not the law!
My boss n I both had 220 swift shooting factory norma loads - mine 24 inch barrel with his 26 inch - mine chronoyd 125fps faster with two inch shorter barrel!
When you translate that into handloading how much more powder would have been needed to match velocities in his rifle?

[Daryl]

SPL or Lee wax don't seem to change anything except for the fouling level in some guns.
: Todd's loads are usualy run to the absolute maximiun and some (a lot of) guns won't allow loads that hot. My old .17AB was different, and allowed his AckBee loads, but gave me another 50fps to 100fps over his to boot, without hurting the brass. Brass longevity is the final test on maximum loads. If the brass continues to hold primers, the load is demed to be safe. In many cases, this is right on the ragged edge and purdence demands a reduction to cover unforseen problems that do seem to crop up.

[Chucker]

Some of the things which cause bullet velocity differences are.

Primers, (lot dependent)
Powder, (lot dependent)
Powder, extreme or not (temp. sensitive)
Powder measured the same, on a calibrated scale or balance.
Bore tightness and is it tapered, which direction.
Bore smoothness.
Firing pin impact strength.
Throat area of the barrel. freebore or not.
Bullet Jump to the rifling.
Moly on bullet or something else
Barrel Length.
Type of steel and condition of the bore itself.
Bullet diameters and shape.
Distance to the chronograph, actual muzzle velocity or measured at 10 ft.

You start to see why the puzzled look on someones face when they say, "I can not get the same velocity as you do, even though its the same load.

Do not forget these are high performance rounds and need to be treated with respect. Cause a .5 grain change in a Mach IV is a 2.5% change in volume. To get the same change in volume on a 7 STW you would have to add 2 grains of powder. Are we seeing the perspective here.

There have been some great words of wisdom provided in the following threads. If we need to discuss some of the variables or if I have missed some please add to the list.

Your friend, Chucker.

[Daryl]

Temperature whether Extreme Powders used or not still a difference.
: Atmospheric conditions/pressure
: Elevation
: straightness of cap beak
: deleted due to political nature
: Actually chronographed or guessed at due to book claims

[sicero]

Cronograph sometimes. Most of them are fairly cheap pieces of equipment for what we are asking them to do. Can we believe they are all set up correctly. Are there as many fast Cronographs as there are fast barrels? Just something to think about. Kenny

[Alex]

... Oehler most of the time. I don't think that he is over/under reporting his velocities. Some of the others that you read hyper velocities from may.

Dr. Oehler is just about ready to go out of the "home" chrony business. He's said that the newly available clocks are so good and inexpensive that the really low cost chronies are almost always on the money. Of course, there is lots of room for error in the very short timing distance of the Shooting Chrony units, but they are so easy to set up that they are virtually taking over the market. Locally, we have seen that on models of varying vintage do give as much as 150 fps difference.

I use my Beta Master when I'm working up loads, but my Oehler when I want to post the results. They seldom disagree.

Alex

[Hammer]

Do not doubt there are differences in rifle to rifle made with the same barrel and reamer.

But do question if we make too much of it.

During World Wars we issued million of Garands and Springfields and bizillions of rounds of ammo. Have not heard of major issues of malfunctions.

In some matches, rifles and ammo are issued randomly at the range to shooters and still they are able to hit the targets.

Not talking about setting world benchrest records.

So how big are the differences between two rifles both meeting SAAMI spec chambers ?

On a slightly different note... Years ago ran multivariable tests (MVT) changing bullet manufacturer, bullet weight, bullet style, bullet seating depth, powder make, powder charge, powder charge technique, primer brand, primer strength, brass mfg, rifle mfg, etc. All loads were safe and did not show excess pressure. Not recommending this for other folks. What was interesting was that all bullets hit in the black on a 100 yard target. Could not have blamed a miss on a 200 yard buck given the observed bullet placement variation.

On the other hand, with a 460 Wby moved the bullet placement over 18 inches at 100 yards just by screwing on and off the factory muzzle brake.


Again, totally acknowledge differences, just want to know how big they are as measured.

[foxhunter]

the big deal is when a guy looses an eye or other parts of his body. remember what this forum deals with here, small calibers, usually sub calibers. .2 of a grain can make one of these rounds go from ok to oh my god, a bullet or primer change can have the same effect. we haven't even talked about powder lots, take 2200, there are several lots out there, with most of the latter being faster than the original.
try this scenario, a guy see's a load listed, he decides to try it in his custom tight chambered, zero leade. so he backs it off 5% switches to his favorite primer and his extra thick formed lapua brass and he has the aa 2200 that's 10% faster than the original lot, he also decides to switch from a berger to a vmax bullet. oh yea i forgot to mention the fella posting the load had been shooting p-dog and 1" of throat was burned out of his barrel.
draw your own conclusions as to what the big deal could be. remember there are a lot of newbies out there gleaning information from the internet, as well as guys that have reloaded 20 rounds for their deer rifle each year, all of a sudden they want to build rifles, reload , shoot p-dogs and do the thing the big boys do.

as to the military rifles in war, they just didn't swap loads with each other.

[sicero]

The inernet game is the only one where you keep your own score. Kind of like honor poker. After I got on to it I only lost the first game. Kenny

[GLWenzl]

I did not post here because it looked like you guys did a great job of covering everything. However I decided to post a copy/paste from an e-mail I sent out because I have been contacted by a couple guys via e-mail about going from no reloading equipment straight to some of the smallest 17 calibers. Just some things to think about....

I “think” Daryl (on Saubier) used a17 HMR barrel for something and I believe it worked well as a centerfire barrel. I am thinking it was a Green Mountain SS Bull barrel???

I forgot to finish typing what I was thinking??? I’ll blame it on working 12-14 hours a day plus a (couple hrs driving) for the last 45 days or so and working straight through for a portion until last weekend and now am getting the weekends off so I’ll blame it on being over tired but I had it in my mind when I replied the first time and must of forgot before I go it written down…

On the Squirrel case it requires many extra reloading tools if you make your own cases. Form dies; a way to cut off the cases, a neck turning tool and then the cases should be annealed….

5 mm mag/17 CCM brass requires a great deal more however it is all done when you purchase them and you pay for it at 60.00 @100. I am not sure how much the squirrel cases go for but you can check it out at http://woodchuckden.com/ .

I am not trying to discourage you but want you to recognize everything before you purchase a press, powder measure, scale and all the other many things needed to play with some of these small cases. This is a super fun hobby for me and I really didn’t start out like you are planning to do, sort-a- grew into it??? Don’t want to see you get discouraged and all of your stuff ends up for sale!!!

Above all else be safe! A grain of powder in these small cases can make a huge difference. You have to know exactly what you are doing and be able to recognize any abnormally and what the expected results will be. Trust but verify, you see a load on the net be sure to verify everything and think about it hard before pulling the trigger on your gun with “that” load. I make many typos and like I said before 1 grain might make the difference between a safe load in one riffle and a gun blow-up in another… That said if I can do this anyone can (and I mean that) so good luck to ya, gw

PS I might copy/paste this to saubier for others whom are considering reloading these small cases….

[Alex]

..., according to Dan Pickett, the most dangerous caliber Cooper chambers for.

I'd have to try to steer they away from the 17Sq, to the 17AH. You can still screw up, but it's a little more difficult. I learned to reload on a 22H, and had a ball doing it.

I concur completely with your sentiments, but think that for a new reloader, the 22H and then a 17AH would be the way to go.

Alex

[Bayou City Boy]

1. Those who want "pet" loads for a certain cartridge and bluntly say they don't own a reloading manual, "so please help me"... :eek:

AND

2. Those who publish a load on the Internet that is over max in most manuals but state that the load is perfectly safe in their rifle because, "Everyone knows reloading manuals and powder companies are conservative in what they publish".:eek: :eek:

I just hope I'm not sitting beside one of them at a rifle range when something unexpected happens.

JMO - BCB

[coyotekory]

I have posted loads on this site and I hope all of you use the same caution I did when I worked them up in my rifles. Nothing scares me more than hearing someone sold my reloads to a friend of his for a gun that was not tested for this load.

[brettTC]

I think lot of people just assume their gun is the same as every one else's.:confused: I shoot mostly T/C Contenders so I have an action that takes lot less pressure to screw up. Lots of reloading manuals have data that is to hot for a contender but okay in bolt guns. Most people that are looking for reloading data on the net are just taking short cuts to that "Magic Load". But I have never found it.

[NFG]

I subscribe to what most of the posters are saying...They're people that shouldn't be allowed anywhere near any kind of mechanical device...moving vehicles OR stationary ones, kitchen appliances, tools AND especially firearms...yet these same people seem to gravitate toward the very things they should stay away from.

HUMANS JUST WON'T LISTEN...and many don't have a clue at all about much of anything. Somehow Mother Nature let them survive to pass on their genes.

Those of us that continually stress safety...START LOW AND WORK UP SLOW...are just preaching to the choir because hardly any of this information gets to those that need it the most...because THEY JUST DON'T LISTEN, and won't take the time to learn, WON'T READ OR LISTEN ANYTHING THEY DON'T LIKE...sound familiar?

In this information age no one has the time or the patients to learn the nuances of ANYTHING...it's instant gratification...I want it now...forget paying the required dues or sweat equity, and there are too many people willing to spread their knowledge because THEY have the great need for another kind of instant gratification...besides all the profit motive crawling around out there

We humans are an amazing species...able to destroy our own home just to have the "latest and greatest" that some other human decides is what we "want" and we can't keep our "devices" out of other "devices" of the opposite persuasion.

I also think there is a very large pile of BS continually piling up on the internet initiated by all the wannabees and armchairs who've hardly ever had a gun in their hands unless it's in a shop, and that continually hound shop proprietors with "let me see that one" then wave it around like they know something, when those that really know and understand from the way the handle the gun and the questions they ask that they don't know squat... then run to the internet and brag or start asking the same questions, that keep all those who like to pontificate all worked up to "show them the way". :(


We are a "free" nation, which means we/they/us/them are free to be just as dumb/stupid/ignorant as we want to be, without any reguard for ourselves or anyone around us. Just think about this thread next time you're out on the range...maybe you will take a closer look at those beside you, especially if they start asking questions like "how do I load this thing". :eek:

Every time I read a post, from someone who is obviously a newbee, I want to share "my knowledge" and get that warm and fuzzy feeling from helping or paying back my own "Karmic debt"...then after I think, "Jeezzz what did I really just do, help someone or put them in danger because they don't know squat about the nuances I have learned, use and didn't mention?"

I keep swearing I won't post another word, then here I am again...I JUST NEVER LISTEN...to my own pontifications. :(

'Njoy

[kenbro]

Hi all, as a long time shooter and novice reloader may i say thanks very much for this thread. Regards,KB.

[cath8r]

I finally got around to reading this thread. Glad I read it!!!

[IOWADON]

He is some of my experience in regard to rifle-to-rifle variations in regard to loads/pressures:

.338-.378 Weatherby –-- My rifle produces 3,330 fps with 225-gr Nosler Accubonds with 106.5 grains of IMR-7828. There is data out there showing only 3200 fps for the same bullet weight and 2.7 grains more of the same powder. An easily explained difference is that my rifle does not have the Weatherby free-bore.

7 MM STW --- My rifle produces 3,550 fps with the 140-grain Nosler Ballistic Tip with 80.0 grains of IMR-7828. Layne Simpson’s original rifle in this caliber using the same bullet and 3.0 grain more of the same powder produced only 3,515 fps. If I increased the powder charge by 3.0 grains in my rifle I am sure that pressure would be extremely high and that I would not even be able to get the bolt open. I have no idea what the difference between the rifles is.

A pair of .17 Hornets --- These are barrels for Thompson-Center TCR-87 break-over single-shot rifles and the chambers were cut with the same reamer. However, the chamber in the first barrel had a very long throat, so I had the throat part of chamber reamer ground down before having the second barrel’s chamber cut. Distance from breech face to rifling for the second barrel is about 0.25 CM shorter (almost 1/10th-inch) than for the first barrel. I reduce the powder charge by 0.3 grains to get about the same velocity (and the same pressure?) out of the second barrel. Also, Winchester brass for the .22 Hornet weights about 5.0 grains more than Remington brass for the .22 Hornet. That much extra metal in the case would displace about 0.3 grains of powder capacity so I reduce the loads by 0.3 grains of powder when using Winchester brass. Finally, the second barrel’s chamber was cut very gradually until a loaded round using Remington brass would go off to insure minimum headspace. It will not shoot rounds constructed from Winchester brass as the rims are thicker and the action will not close on them. I don’t know how the other Thompson-Center break-over guns work, but for the TCR-87’s the trigger initiate the firing pin if the action is not absolutely closed.

That’s all - DON

[georgeld]

A few yrs ago I was loading .223's with AA 2200 & reading the lable as that's all the data that I could find. IT said: 23gr max w/40gr bullets.
About that same time I read a posting somewhere of a guy claiming to be getting real good results with 28gr & 55's.
Just for kicks I filled a case full just to see how much it held. Don't recall now what it was but, wouldn't hold that much.

Two yrs ago while trying to find max in my NEF .17x28. I'd loaded & fired a single case five times with 10.0gr H110 w/20gr V max. Fired fine, case looked good to me. So I upped the charge .2, yes, only two tenths to a charge of 10.2gr. otherwise the very same load and same case.

I blew the gun up!! Primer pocket blew out to 1/4" dia & split the head. Broke a few parts, blew the plastic trigger guard to pcs, drew blood from my trigger hand several places, it blew the action open, broken firing pin among other pcs broken. I got very lucky as that's all the damage done. & the gun was repaired for less than $20 with some new pcs.

Tiny cases, can be very dangerous with a tiny bit of powder. Whether it would have been fine with 10.1 gr I have no idea, nor will I be learning either. My max charge will be 9.8 or 10.0gr.

A very good thread Doug, thanks for starting it, and thanks to everyone else for posting too.

[firebird74521]

It appears that some people get into handloading without taking any time to learn at least a little of the physics at work when the primer ignites the powder charge and how every little change in components can affect the pressure spike to dangerous levels. Some are just stufing powder into cases without any knowledge of how it works at all. Sub calibers have tiny cases and pressure builds fast because there is no large powder charge to burn through and little room in the case for the pressure to expand into. Just one almost instant burn and pressure spike. The tiny bore doesn't allow that pressure to expand much as the tiny bullet moves down the miniscule bore as does a larger caliber. The desire for extreme velocity in hand loading sub calibers without a constant watch for even the slighest pressure sign is a disaster waiting happen. Velocity is fun but a gain of 200FPS really does damn little for hunting varmints or anything else. The difference in gained PBR is little. It is more for bragging than anything usefull. Definelty not worth blowing half your face off.

[sicero]

Very good post Firebird 74521. Your experience shows thru.

When I bought my first SC rifle a few years ago I ordered a bunch of stuff from Kindler including a little magazine called Sensational 17s or something like that. I promptly sent it back as totaly worthless without pressure testing data. Kenny

[wally bennett]

I got my new Small Caliber News yesterday, good issue. Lot's of small caliber stuff. (Great article Alex).
In reading some of the articles as well as letters to the editor I was again struck by the same thing I find on the internet, rifle to rifle load data varies hugely and caution is always in order no matter what the source.
Two examples were, one the letter where an individual was getting 3,848fps with a 30 grain bullet in a .17 MachIV when in my MachIV 3,850ish is all of it with a 25 grainer.
The other was in Todds data on the VarTarg with a 32 grain bullet using N120. His top load was 19 grains and while I've only used N120 a little in my VarTarg I've used it enough to know 19 grains of the lot I have would be "way" over the top with a 32grainer in my rifle.
Lot to lot powder varience can't be overstated it would appear as are rifle to rifle variances.
As a long time reloader of bigger stuff it is obvious to me the smaller cases and smaller bores must be a lot more critical to such changes than I was used to in .223 and up stuff.
I can't get the image of Mntngoats rifle or Randy Mertas eye out of my mind.
The max load of my lot of H4198 in my Tact.20 for example using a 33 grainer is near three grains lighter than what I've seen published in a small caliber load book.

The stuff I read today just reinforced how different those writers experiences with their rifles and powder lots were from my own.
I guess we can't be too careful huh?

Hi Montdoug was thinking about a thread myself same topic i have been loading for about 30 years now for two 222,s a 243 and my own hornet and two other hornets in all the guns i always started low and worked up to the lowest max load in all the load data books then carfully increased to the max load of the others and in all cases i had no pressure signs at all and i used a mike on all cases before and after fireing and did not find any increase in head size or any bolt stickyness. THEN THINGS CHANGED!. I bought a 17A/H Barrel from Pac-Nor stainless match grade 24" long as well as the Sensational Seventeens book from Tod Kindler.( Dont get me wrong its a perfect barrel and after about 1,000 rounds i have failed to find any sign of copper even after trying all the copper removers i can get my hands on ) but the chamber size is so tight when i used the published load for fireforming i got a stuck case and it worried me.
It was 11.9grns of N120 behind a 20grn V/MAX The load i settled on is 10.5grns of N120 pushing a 20grn V/MAX at 3,528ft/sec my main load is 10.8grns of N120 pushing 20grn V/MAX for 3,640ft/sec CCI400 primers in both and R&P Cases.Published data is 11.6grains of N120 for 3.621ft/sec whilst i get 3,640ft/sec from 10.8grains published max is 12.2 grains N120 for 3,847ft/sec my gun puts out 4,080ft/sec for 12grains of N120 and a very sticky bolt I ONLY TRIED ONE!
SO YOU ALL BE CAREFULL OUT THERE YOU ARE NOT JAMES BOND YOU ONLY LIVE ONCE.Wally
Life is a bitch then you die (just make sure its not an overload that does it)

[wally bennett]

So thanks lads or lassies for pointing out the differences in different powder lots i honestly thought that powder manufacters would ensure the powders gave the same performance between lots ( i must be a bigger fool than i thought ) so i suppose its a good job that i have always loaded well below max loads so i will have to test my next lot (just bought ) of N120 against the remaining loads loaded with the last lot in my Pac-Nor barreled 17 Aclkey Hornet
I have had so much help reading the threads on the Saubier web site i have had to think again about many things i thought i new but somone else had better ideas.
Thanks Wally

[montdoug]

Howdy Wally and welcome.
When I first posted this thread Dan C. and I were both working on loads in our .20 Killer Bees. Both using the same Pac-Nor barrel I believe and both cut by the same reamer and same gunsmith. Same bullets and both using AA1680 but both were of course different lots. It amazed me how we both ended up at about the same velocities but with a significant difference in powder charge. What caused the variations :confused:. When I started looking at all the things that could be contributing factors it became real clear to me. Load data ain't like cookie recipes!!! :eek:
Without going into it at great length your .17 Ackley data is another good example. I use N120 and 20 grain V-Max's with WSR primers in WW cases and my charges and velocities are way different than yours.
It's a fascinating hobby huh?
Once again, welcome to Saubier.com :).

[wally bennett]

So thanks lads or lassies for pointing out the differences in different powder lots i honestly thought that powder manufacters would ensure the powders gave the same performance between lots ( i must be a bigger fool than i thought ) so i suppose its a good job that i have always loaded well below max loads so i will have to test my next lot (just bought ) of N120 against the remaining loads loaded with the last lot in my Pac-Nor barreled 17 Aclkey Hornet
I have had so much help reading the threads on the Saubier web site i have had to think again about many things i thought i new but somone else had better ideas.
Thanks Wally

Done a few test loads with my new lot of Vit n 120

Ruger 77/22H re-barreld with Pac-Nor stainless in 17A/H R&P Cases CCI400
Vit n 120 20grn V/Max oal1.810" (touch)

Old lot
10.8gr gave me 3,637ft sec 11.2gr gave me sticky bolt but i did not crony it

New lot
Up to 12gr now with no pressure signs ( crono broke a friend put a 22H bullet through it )but not quite the speed of 10.8gr of the old lot its a little low at 160yds so will try 12.2gr ASAP

Main thing is no pressure signs with i.2gr more powder and all other componants the same
Wally

[Remmynut]

As some know, I have sat here researching 22 hornet loads, tongue in cheek, just getting an overview of "RANGES" of charges some use and the powders, problems, Chony results..groups........etc.

Loading data and books vary as badly if not worse.

A few times Ive found a post by a gentleman using a Hornet and LGun.

"I've found that using the case for my "measure" and just filling it to the top and striking it off with a credit card is all I need to do for excellent groups and velocities" (not quoted but the same as")

I might "pass" on that one. :p

Might work........might not too.......scares me and Im fearless.

God Bless

[Daryl]

Remmynut - have you filed a case and struck it off to find what that weighs? Depending on brass make & if it's merely scooped - ie: in WW brass, it might be a load listed by Hodgdon - that is, it might be only 13.0gr. You did say the fellow used the case as a measure.

Merely look at Hodgdon's data - they sell the powder - they tested the powder and they should know what the powder does.
They used WW brass, WSR primer, 24" bl.
Their data:
30gr. bullet-13.0gr.
35gr. bullet-13.0gr.
40gr. bullet-13.0gr.
45gr. bullet-13.0gr.
50gr. bullet-13.0gr.
53gr. Barnes XFB-12.0gr. Very hard bullet - pressure listed as 39,000cup
55gr. bullet-13.0gr.

Looks like they felt the case capacity load is around 13.0gr. If you've loaded some, you've seen that dropping out of a measure into the case leaves very little room for the bullet in WW cases.

Their 13.0gr. load developed 28,400cup with a 40gr. and 24,000cup with the 35gr. I've tested up to a full case in both WW and RP brass and had NO adverse pressure signs in a CZ rifle. I've never lost a case in that rifle due to expanded primer pocket - in over 17,000 rounds fired now with loads in excess of the ones listed by Hodgdon - using Lil'Gun - up to 13.5g.r in WW cases and 14.4gr. in RP cases. The RP brass holds almost exactly 1gr. more than WW brass.

I think some people who are fearless should gain more information before becoming too firghtened.

[MarinePMI]

As some know, I have sat here researching 22 hornet loads, tongue in cheek, just getting an overview of "RANGES" of charges some use and the powders, problems, Chony results..groups........etc.

Loading data and books vary as badly if not worse.

A few times Ive found a post by a gentleman using a Hornet and LGun.

"I've found that using the case for my "measure" and just filling it to the top and striking it off with a credit card is all I need to do for excellent groups and velocities" (not quoted but the same as")

I might "pass" on that one. :p

Might work........might not too.......scares me and Im fearless.

God Bless
I've shot PDs with a guy that does this. It works for him I suppose, but I can't just get my head around it (or cojones enough to do it myself). I like my eyes working... :cool:

[Remmynut]

As I said before it might WORK.....I have more issues with no mention of brass type, new or not, neck resized or full length or any mention of how many grains that was, estimated or not.

Might not BLOW but one has to wonder on consistancy in loads? Working and being consistant (half the reason I load) are two different issues but Ill admit, like the post above, it's tough for me to get my head around when we weigh each load down to .1 of a grain.

Dont think for a minute I wont try this and check the weights of the loads. :D

Ive never handled lil gun yet so maybe the powder size etc makes it pretty consistant doing that but I'll have to see in first hand is all. Its totally the other end of the spectrum from most loaders I know of.

Hey, if it works CONSISTANTY.......I may do it myself, but suggest it on the web as a recommendation? Nope.

No offense meant.

GodBless
Steve

[montdoug]

Trusting posts on web sites for loading data is like running through the trees with your eyes closed, sooner or later something bad is gonna happen :eek:.
Even on this site, or maybe especially on this site some are pretty convincing when passing out unsafe data. The only thing that interests me in loading data is what is the starting point, I'll take er from there thanks :).

[sicero]

Amen Dude\\

Message too short.

[GLWenzl]

The only thing that interests me in loading data is what is the starting point, I'll take er from there thanks :).

Probably should use caution at that especially working with smaller case capacities.

I've been Lucky and did most of my stuff without anyone's loads or advice because there was none with the powders I wanted to use.

[Bayou City Boy]

Probably should use caution at that especially working with smaller case capacities.

I've been Lucky and did most of my stuff without anyone's loads or advice because there was none with the powders I wanted to use.

But knowing you as I do, Gary, I know that you used some common sense and did some sound research before plunging forward.

What you see and read today by these new "internet experts" is an approach that is going to get someone seriously hurt. The idea that brass can be formed in a certain manner and it becomes magical with new found strength capable of hyper velocity in a good rifle action is pure lunacy. I'm sorry if that sounds harsh but I don't know of any other way to say it. Brass is brass and it has been the same for years. And it is the weak link in the entire equation. When it fails, everything else fails too.

SAAMI pressure standards are applied to brass and not to rifles. If the brass gives way due to excessive heat and/or pressure, it won't matter if you're shooting a $100 surplus military action or a $2K custom action. There will still be lots of startling things happening just in front of your face, none of which will be pleasant.

I told myself I wasn't going to post, but I'd feel very bad if someone unsuspectingly got hurt because he went down the road a few folks are blissfully traveling today with their delusions about what they are personally capable of doing that will revolutionize the world. Coming back down to earth after an unplanned for boom might be a startling revolution in itself.

Again I just hope the first person to get hurt is not an innocent person who took someone else's stupidity to faith because he read it on the internet.

-BCB

[DJTJR]

Yup the worst is getting load data from people who live at altitude when you live at sea level. Big change

[stephen perry 1]

Same as on all reloading Forums. Lots of reloaders learn reloading on what they learn on Forums. Can't fault them they want to learn. On Small Caliber where allot of case forming goes on maybe someone should write a Thread on how to reduce say a .20 down to a .17 without destroying brass.

It's too easy for experienced loaders to ignore a new guy asking a simple question. If the new guy gets help when he asks for it he'll probably help another new guy somewhere down the line.

I agree with you and appreciate that high pressure loads should not be passed on in computer reloading.

Stephen Perry

[montdoug]

I just re-looked at this thread and thought I'd add something for what it's worth.

Because I agree that a lot of new reloaders, especially on the small caliber non-published wildcat rounds use the internet as a source of information I'd like to take it a step farther.
I believe we owe it to all those guys as well as our sport in general to "POLITELY :)", point out things posted that are patently unsafe or at least would be in our own rifle! That's why I originally started this thread, to point out that we "ARE NOT" making cookies here and just because one rifle held up to a number of way over pressure rounds without blowing up it doesn't mean the next guys rifle will do the same :eek:!! Any combination of components that achieves one thing in one rifle, even if it is safe in that rifle will not necessarily be the same in another. Further, if someone is telling you it is with anything but a starting load I'd scratch em off my "listen to list".

Once again I sound like the social avenger but as Foxhunter once said so correctly, "These small calibers can go from "Oh My :D", to "Oh My GOD :eek:", in one or two tenths of a grain of powder.

This came up for me a day or two back when a very experienced reloader, older guy buddy a mine that got into the small calibers because of me, calls me. He tells me he has the .17 MachIV Greg Tannel made for him pushing 25 grain V-Max's at 4,100FPS + with a load he actually worked up to on advice off a new internet buddy and it's driving tacks! When I looked at the load data I've saved on my MachIV I see clearly that that load, with my lot of powder, in my rifle, "would be catastrophic"!!!
I'd sure hate like heck to be responsible for getting someone hurt.
Shoot safe guys!!

[Bill K]

..., according to Dan Pickett, the most dangerous caliber Cooper chambers for.

I'd have to try to steer they away from the 17Sq, to the 17AH. You can still screw up, but it's a little more difficult. I learned to reload on a 22H, and had a ball doing it.

I concur completely with your sentiments, but think that for a new reloader, the 22H and then a 17AH would be the way to go.

Alex

I know, my 17 HH, started showing pressure signs faster than any cartridge I have ever loaded for. Just 1/10th of a grain makes a difference faster than any other cartridge I have or load for. So we really need to be careful with those tiny rounds. Bill K

[Bayou City Boy]

It seems that with recent revelations here that this thread once again has significant relevance.

As I've said before:

1. More than one reloader has seen no "obvious signs" of extreme pressure, sometimes for years, and then one day he sees and feels some "obvious signs" for "no obvious reason" that hopefully has him feeling Papal blessings that he still has eyes, fingers and even toes.

And after the prayers and blessings, he's amazed at the condition - or lack thereof - of his favorite rifle. Again, for "no obvious" reason.

2. The brass cartridge case is always the weak link in this equation of what is safe and what isn't. And for the record, there is no magical brass, military or civilian design, that won't catastrophically fail if enough heat and pressure are applied.

Some of the internet loads that are being passed around with vigor I bet would cause wet diapers if they could be fired in a test barrel with the capability of measuring actual breech pressures on a cartridge case with a strain gauge. It is never the action that fails first. It is the inability of the action to contain the suddenly released pressure resulting from failure of the cartridge case that make junk of both.

With small cartridges, the possibility of failure is probably greater than with larger cartridges holding a lot more powder. Excessive pressure is still excessive pressure no matter how small the cartridge case might be.

I've said this before, and I'll say it again. I hope that NO ONE ever gets hurt from a reloading accident. But if it happens because of an internet recipe touted to be safe, I hope it's not an innocent drinker of the Kool-Aid (read that as meaning a new reloader) that gets hurt.

I've never experienced a reloading failure on my own, but I've seen the results of a couple. The one that came out the best involved nothing more than a very good rifle being completely destroyed and clean underwear. The worst one involved requiring that small pieces of brass and metal be removed from a face, neck, and upper chest that looked like they had been peppered with rock salt from 50 feet. By the Grace of God and shooting glasses, both eyes were spared, but the most significant human damage was to an arm that had a fairly significant chunk of what was once a rifle action imbedded in it against the bone. Both incidents caused me to almost wet my diapers due to the loud boom, and I was not along side either person, which by definition, becomes a blast sight when the loud booms happened.

Be safe at what we enjoy and don't believe everything you read on the internet. For a new reloading fan, buying a good reloading manual and reading it is far cheaper than a doctor visit/s and having to replace your favorite rifle. And it's much cheaper in a bunch of ways than playing Russian Roulette with borrowed free internet advice is coming from someone who has been lucky so far.

JMO - BCB

[x32030]

I second the motion Bill K. The .17 HH with Lil-gun for sure! AA-2200 seems more forgiving in pressure issues. I can't use more than 9.7 of Lil-gun in the summer months.

[georgeld]

Glad this thread has come back to life.
Whole lot of great advice and info within it.

I showed a recently made friend Bob's VR and a shell., then loaned him the SCN with the gun in and on the cover. "oh man, I've gotta have one of these!"
Next thing I heard was he'd bought a TC and was having a reamer made to cut the chamber at home. He don't seem to listen very well. I've told him many times to get on here and study this stuff before he gets into trouble.
I even let him copy Bob's load data I printed off years ago. Offered to loan him both the rifles I have chambered alike now and ammo to burn up too. "nah, will build my own and learn from there". The mans 52 and won't take experienced advice. Scares the hell out of me.

An old Late coyote hunting friend gave me his ammo, n loading supplies, dies, hunting boots and such other things as he'd had health problems and given it up. He had a long running foreman's job at the steel mill and could afford a dozen Dillon 1050's. But no, he made up a ? press with a couple metal straps, two pcs of 2x4 and stacked nickles to change seating depth. OF course, he never owned a scale of any kind, "don't need one, I use Lee's dippers".

I pulled a few of his 357 loads and weighed the charges. They varied over 5 grains! Same powder too. Once I discovered that, every load he'd given me was pulled down and dumped, started over fresh.

I've done about everything that could be done wrong with a gun and never blew one up until that NEF .17x28 with just .2gr increase. That was my first experience with the small cases. I got lucky once more that time.
Sometimes we do, others don't.

Another thing I haven't seen posted here. Just because a rifle had digested 1000 rounds of one hot load, don't mean the stress point hasn't been reached and the next shot with the same load or batch of loads might blow things up. When I first hurt my back. The doc said: "backs are like a beer can you bend in half. Sooner or later somethings going to break".
Think about this folks.