Info on my true Remchester project w/pics & long

[GLWenzl]

One of you asked for info and I forgot who it was but if you let me know I can send some more detailed info from the drawing…

Some might remember this project, my Dad’s Winchester Model 70 (22-250) that had so much corrosion in the barrel you could not see but specs of light through it after a water leak in their basement and know one knew about it for a quite a while….

I am the guy that the gunsmiths hate… always on a project with no $$ to spend and a bunch of questions… can you do this???? Well this was an interesting project for me… And I would once again like to thank Jim Saubier for this great web site and all of you for the degree I have working on in small caliber riffles (and some bigger)… 5-10 years ago I would have never thought it was possible for me to learn how to refinish stocks and learn how to build riffles but ya all took a ole farm boy and are learn’n him well…

I took a freshly rechambered factory Rem 700 barrel that I once intended to reinstall back on my Rem BDL action after I shot out my 20 BR barrel. Decided I might be pretty old when that happens so it got donated to Dad’s Winchester project….

First off the thread OD needed to be turn down to a smaller diameter leaveing only a light trace of the old threads as well as cutting a couple threads off end (where rem has the recessed chamber)

Next the original Remy shoulder was too far out so a spacer/bushing was needed. On once side of the spacer ID a chamfer was cut into it so it would fit up against the shoulder nicely.

http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f388/glwenzl/IMG_2807.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f388/glwenzl/IMG_2809-1.jpg

The OD of the spacer is just a hair to big, hardly noticable but enough from me to stone it down smooth sometime soon..


http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f388/glwenzl/IMG_2811-1.jpg
http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f388/glwenzl/IMG_2813.jpg

It must have been an accident but it appears that the measurements I took came out correct??? Tell me if I am wrong here please…. After installing the remy barrel to the Win action w/spacer installed I removed the firing pin from the bolt so the bolt will drop closed on its own with the weight of the bolt handle. Next I took a fired 22-250 case from the original rem riffle, one from my old Cooper and another once fired from a Ruger and I could feel that it seemed way too tight and I never even attempted to close the bolt. A little bit concerned I FL resized a case and it will close nicely with only enough resistance that the bolt will not drop on its own however with a light touch from my pincky it will???? Am I ok??? It seems like I have *0* head space but yet have around .005 clearance between the bolt face and the chamber face…. Or am I missing something here????

Anyway I have the trigger set about 1.5 lbs…. The barreled action dropped right into the original stock very nicely and uniformly free float (YipYee!!). The barrel is 23 1/8” long from the muzzle to the front of the action… The stock needs to be redone but that’ll wait for right now!!!

[rick w.]

Hello Gary,

Just wondering about the breeching of a post 64 Winchester model 70. I thought it would be very similar to a mauser, ie the back of the barrel has no cuts other than a very, very slight champher for the case to enter the barrel without scratching.

So, I am looking at the back of your remodeled shank. I would have thought you would have taken off "all" the old 700's bolt recess and just extended the threads up the barrel proper. Guess I am concerned about gapspace on the pictured barrel, just a worry wort here.

If the Winchester post 70 breeching has the bolt nose about 0.005 off the back of the barrel, then the gapspace(relative case exposure measurement) is from the end of the barrel to the back of the bolt's cavity. If one does a partial recess on a barrel for such, then in general the gapspace is increased by the depth of the barrel recess. Gapspace is a relative measurement of web exposure of the case in the barrel/bolt area. As you know cases have a thicker area of brass near the cartridge head to hold the pressure, expose more of this, and you can bulge or rupture the case.

I suspect(guess) you were trying to keep the old chamber in tact of the Remington donor barrel and put it on the Winchester, I do not believe that is possible for many reasons; mainly that I believe that breeching of a Remingto 700 and a post64 Model 70 are different. Guess I am eluding to a need for a chamber reamer to redo the existing chamber.

One might note, that a rifle can have perfect headspace(a range of around 0.004 between a go and no go gauge), yet have an unsafe condition because of excessive case exposure. Seems like there were some HV 70's(post type) that had a heck of super champher in the barrel, that some rifles blew up(ruptured swifts) because of the excessive case web exposure.

Just wanted to get you to think about such exposures in general. Just had a bit of the willys with your picture. Kinda my own problem. No intention on hassling anyone, but I would have issues on shooting the rifle with such a recess.

Rick W.

[ray h]

Looks good Gary, glad to finally see the elusive Remchester.

[GLWenzl]

Ha! I take back every nice thing I ever said about…. LOL No offense taken Ric and Thank you very much for catching that!!!

Yes I am trying to *make do* with the Chamber and made all of my measurements with just that in mind... Maybe I should have just rented a reamer but this one has never been shot since I had it re-chambered and it seemed like the right thing to do at the time

Here is a good example of what can happen if you do not send your stuff out to a good gun smith and try the do-it-yourself method.... And here I thought I was smart enough to pull it off??? I should have known better!

I will take a closer look but in my own mind I guess that I was just assuming that this is the way a rem chamber is and since it is just covered by the bolt then it should work here as is...

FWIW I believe that may bolt face is snug up against the sized case and with the bolt closed I can get a snug .005" feeler gauge (home made shim stock thinly sliced to fit into the hole on the action directly inline with the end of the threads and face end of the bolt...

Even if it would turn out that this is a safe condition to shoot this riffle this way I am still very grateful you brought this to my attention because I didn’t recognize or see it as a problem

I also didn't think about feeding and am wondering if I will have an issue there too???

[rick w.]

I would not sell myself short there Gary, you have a lot of talent going if you can chase existing threads that well..........not a lot of folks can do that right(me included); hope my comments are not taken as disheartening for something you are interested in. You have the fire; keep it lit; my own crude way of encouraging you.

Lord knows I have done worse in my time; one just has to learn and keep going at it.

You might want to discuss the resultant recess with a gunsmith that you trust, ........you know how internet hearsay is(me). I have tried to study breeching techniques, and still have to learn stuff; never enough time/information it seems to me. Kinda all about safety.

To me, headspace says nothing about case exposure from the barrel proper(walls). It is simply a measurement from whatever is the holding feature of the case in the chamber(rim, shoulder, etc) back to the face of the holding mechanism, ie bolt or breechblock.

Gapspace is a relative measurement that shows case(brass) exposure from the retainning walls of the barrel. Different actions do their breeching a bit differently, but yet the same. All breeching systems seem to show a conservative exposure of the back of the brass case. Remington has just moved that area within the barrel proper(three rings stuff), gapspace is there to allow grabbing of the case for extraction, just a reason among the many. Just because the 700 has extra rings of steel, does not mean that in a case failure; that gas/particles cannot come out of the action. In any rifle action breeching, the brass is what is holding the heavy pressures at the gapspacing. Anyone that has had a primer failure in a remington 700, knows that safety glasses are your friend.

Excess gapspace may not get you at first, or it might do it the first crack; our brass today is remarkable strong stuff. The first time I was exposed to gapspace issues was as an observer with rechambering remington 700 to 6ppc for benchrest. The proper techniques for the 700 were used, but the balloon(thinnish web) cases(220 russian) back then swelled and sometimes let go in the gap.

If one removes the old remington 700 barrel's recess completely, rethreads/shoulders like the takeoff model 70(post 64); then the result will breech up like the original 70 barrel looks like. Guess that depends on the particular barrel with shoulder diameter requirements. Taking the remington 1.062 nominal threading down to 0.995; leaves a little thread that you could chase into winchester threads.

I kinda think(my opinion only) is that if one can purchase oem ammo, then headspace gauges ought to be used. A lot of movement(case relative length) is available with reloading sizers, so if a piece of brass is used to "check" breeching, then perhaps we have ventured into the wildcat arena, ie formed cases are intended for that setup; some issues can be shown with improved chambers done without the basic ideas in mind, and have an unsafe condition.



Rick W.

[Alan in GA]

and Rick W. brings up an often overlooked area [barrel face to bolt face dimension] that is VERY important. Good thinking Rick.
One other thing popped into my gray matter when reading this: Gary you mention using fired cases. If you want to use a fired case I would at least size the body and neck by running the case into a FL die, but without 'hitting/sizing' the shoulder. Otherwise you can get an expanded case to feel as though it has stopped entering the chamber because the case walls have 'stopped' it instead of the shoulder. You could believe you are getting a shoulder reading but instead be 'reading' apparent headspace because of a tight or jammed body.
Best to use new factory ammo,,,or actually "BEST" is to use a headspace guage. I've used a box or two [different brands]of new factory ammo for headspacing barrels on MY rifles if I didn't have a gauge. That would be 'jackleg' engineering on my part but the method almost always gives me a less than standard/tighter chamber. Most 'correct' chambers will let factory ammo fit a bit sloppy so setting headspace on one of my personal barrels with new ammo usually makes for a 'too tight' headspace compared to standard.
But Rick does bring up an important dimension that I believe some 'smith's overlook,,,,the 'gap'.
Case sidewalls blowing thru at the 'gap' can blow up a rifle. Maybe not the metal but surely the stock and magazine parts.
Good pictures of your project, too! I also am one that just cant' throw away a good take off barrel. My Rem 700 barrel that is fit to my CZ is just over 5,000 rounds of 17 Ack Hnt after this year's Montana trip! Still going, too.

[GLWenzl]

Thanks Alan... On the fired cases I guess that I should have explained myself better... I was trying to use them somewhat as a *no gauge* and a FL sized case as a go gauge...

I realized that left a variable but at the time figured it was close enough however I now realize as there is no such thing as close when dealing with something like this...

Since your reply Ric I could not be happier but yet I could not see the problem although I completely understood where you were coming from… Even though I was told by several today this can not be done and was somewhat discouraged with myself (but still felt grateful for this opportunity) I really felt in my heart it should and could work from what I saw when I was doing the planning…

You see I was so concerned about how much of the case was sticking out of the chamber and the depth of the bolt face that I only measured with case installed to face of chamber... After this peer check and a call to two very good and well known gunsmiths I now realize that what I really needed was a bolt nose to bolt face measurement and a measurement from the chamber face outer lip to the inner face of the chamber and add them up along with that .005" gap I had between the bolt nose and the out lip on the chamber face ensuring that I do not have too much of the case sticking out…. Was told .150-.155 would be the max….

Sorry if I am not using the proper nomenclature, I need to get the book back out!!!

Soooo, tonight I finally get home a little bit ago and remove the barrel to take these measurements. Here is what I found

Bolt nose to bolt face .115”
Chamber inner face to outer face .035”
Gap between bolt and chamber .005”

Oddly enough that comes up to .155”… Not being a number guy and just doing what ever it takes to get the result I was looking for I was sure glad to see them numbers add up like that…

Although I am on the high end of the numbers and it feels like I have the bolt holding a new case snug into the chamber I am still looking and questioning this project before actually loading anything up for it…

Thanks for the questioning attitude and reading all my bs to help keep me safe… Its hell sometimes when you are a slow learner and have to learn everything from the bottom up… Actually from below the bottom! lol

[rick w.]

Gary,

Looks like you are doing the numbers theoretically, then actually measuring the numbers on the work to see if they match...........tis good. :-) No one doing such work can become complacent on the numbers, tis hard for me to keep that thought, I really have to work at it.

I could not tell the actual depth of the recess that was left after machining in the picture, but knew it was not like the original. I too have to do with what little I have now.

Ever see a bolt being reworked because of faulty primers eroding a circle around the firing pin hole? The interior face of the bolt is refaced smooth as possible, not much is taken from the bolt face; as this effects headspace and moreso(in my opinion) gapspace.

The HV Winchester in a 220 swift with the extra deep factory? champher was shown on this forum, the case let go near the head because of the lack of support. I tried to find it again to show a reference link to it, but failed miserably so far.

In retrospection, if one looks at the Mauser bolt gun breeching, there is a gapspace to ponder. Mauser uses an interior shoulder to take the barrel torque, the outer(receiver face) ring takes none or very little pressure, but the interior shoulder in the action has thickness, so the cartridge head sticks through the interior shoulder of the action and then has to get close to the bolt face for the claw extractor to grab. Some of those might beat your numbers :-)

One might note, that Mauser has one of the finest(big word for me) gas deflection(handling) designs; much better than some of today's more modern actions. Guess the idea in visiting the mauser breeching a little is to say that one might breech the specific action like it was intended(designed) to be. If one comes off that, then one is losing some edge on safety and function(just an opinion).

In gapspacing, moving the cartridge further out than it really needs to be starts to erode the safety factor we all strive for. A $50 dollar barrel is a lot for me nowadays, but sometimes is pretty cheap to scrap as opposed having a wreck(whatever reason). Bad enough to have happen to oneself, but to have something happen to another would be worse for me.

I am fussing with a No.1 in a 17 Bee wildcat. I took the gapspace down in that rifle down to 0.0005". All my measurements came out like I wanted, but the extractor is binding and not working well. When I elongated the shank, I forgot to add that number to the extractor depth. So is recoverable with more work, but felt dumb.

If you ever talk to a gunsmith that never made a mistake or does not have a scrap barrel for a few rifle barrels he ruined; you might think about a second opinion. I have some "overmachined" barrels myself, I keep them for just usin' material as well as reminders that I am to do better work. My friends tell me I am overly critical of my work, they did not think scrapping a barrel for an extractor slot overcut(not in depth) was wasteful, but guess "I" had to be satisfied with it, guess thought I could do better........and I eventually did.

So in my own little reclusive world, I have always been over critical of my professional work or my hobby work for myself(rifles). Guess sometimes I come off worse than perhaps I really am.

So you got exposed to another view of gapspace(probably overly critical view on my part). One thing about advice, is that you can decide for yourself to take it or leave it :-)

I learned under a master gunsmith for just a little while before he passed..............life with the lathe sure got complicated after that; but I am endeavoring to perservere somehow; trying to apply a little of what he told me. You are so much further ahead than I ever thought about being. So keep after improving your techniques and knowledge. :-)

Rick

[GLWenzl]

Thanks for all the good info Rick!

The best thing about this project was suppose to be to see my Dad’s happy face. Even though all crippled up with arthritis and has not shot a riffle in years he doesn't like to see things wasted and enjoys seeing something made from nothing.

Well it turns out I have learned much more than I knew before... I never looked at how much case was sticking out of different mfg chambers and the Winchester design (I seen here) sure looks like a better design than the Rems (IMO) and I wish that this installed rem barrel was like it...

Ray H has mentored me a lot about different actions designs, bolt designs, chambers, and women (just kidding about the women, I'll mentor him on them someday LOL) however sometimes it doesn't all sink in and only portions stick.. But it sure comes together once I get my hands on it! Him you and others here have been most generous leaving me with a deep sense of respect and gratitude towards all of ya!!!

I have it all put together except the scope and will try and load some up today to see if I can make group and answer that big question… How well will it shoot???

Now to finish up on the CZ barrel nut project!!!

[GLWenzl]

Decided to dig up this thread and let ya all know how it shoots... Well how it shot today that is...

The trigger is factory and set shy of 2lbs if I remember right. Nice clean breaking trigger that is a joy to pull...

The scope is the original old pacific 3-9 that my Dad had on it with Luey rings and mounts.

The ammo was loaded up years ago for the original factory remy chamber and neck sized. Being too large I pulled the 40 gr molly coated v-max bullets, resized and reseated the bullet to the same OL using a wire plier that left a good lil mark on the bullets that I re-used.

The target was an old upright freezer that had a big .44 mag 240 gr HP XTP hole through it at a distance of 190 yards from my bench... It put 5 into just over a 1" nice looking group. I think with a tailored load and some bullets with no roughed up jackets it will do even better (I hope)… I’ll probably try the 52 gr BTHP match Hornady bullet if I ever get time to work up a load for it….

I went to my dad’s quail and pheasant hunting with no signs of any birds???? Took out the Remchester and got its first two kills. Dad was very impressed and told me to keep it here so it didn’t get rusty again…. (good move dad lol).

Pulling the molly coated bullets was interesting that some pulled way harder than others and it didn’t appear to have the molly off the ones that pulled hard??? Weird???