Bullet Lube

[John Parrish]

I have quite a few questions about making and using bullet swaging lubes. I'd appreciate input.
From what I've read, making the lube for the bullet swaging is done by adding the ingredients by weight. What is the best way to do this (postal scale, reloading scale)? I'm going to be using lanolin, lard oil and silicone oil to make the lube (recommended by a local bullet maker). Do I need to melt the ingredients to allow even mixing, or simply mix the ingredients until thouroughly mixed? When lubing jackets, how is the desired amount (again, measured by weight) added to the mix jar (smeared on the sides, warmed to make it flow easier, etc)? Thanks

John

[iiranger]

The two old, pre-complicated, man-made chemicals, standard "high pressure lubes" are lanolin, a grease, and castor oil, an oil. You can use either straight and if they don't stand up, doubtful anything else will. Maybe, but -???.

WW I aircraft flew on castor oil. Only oil they had that would "stand up" to the airplane engine. Engines leaked A LOT! That is the reason for the scarf and goggles and the grease blackened faces around the goggles... Some say the airfields smelled like a cheap diner with all that overcooked vegetable oil...

For mixing a "double boiler" is nice. Don't borrow the wife's. Hit the thrift stores and find an old beat-up one. You boil water in the lower pan and mix your goods in the upper pan over boiling (or hot) water. No, you do not "have to." You can mix things cold, just takes more elbow grease. You want the exercise? In Alaska it might keep you warm most of the winter.

"Lard oil?" O.K. All these are "natural" products and if you leave them out where it is warm, they may "spoil." Rot? Decompose. I would keep a tight lid on and maybe in a refridgerator if it is hot, hot, hot. No exact idea what "lard oil" is, but if it is from pig fat... I would not be inclined to use it.

Silicone oil? No idea. Some formulas, Corona Ointment and Bag Balm, add mercury, tiny amount, as a preservative and disinfectant--like mercurichrome. Bag balm is for milk cows with sore teats... With the war on mercury batteries, I was suprised they survived, but still out last I looked.

There was a ratio of 4 oz castor oil to 16 oz of lanolin given on another board. You can have about any consistency you desire. Maybe more liquid for "lube pad" use...(old, inkless stamp pad. You can use an old, dried, inked pad, just makes your fingers more colorful...). Or go straight lanolin and work it into the pad, again, more elbow grease.

How much. One collection of suggestions from top flight bullet makers (on the net) talks of weighing an amount onto a piece of waxed paper--reloading scale I believe, tossing it in with a number of jackets and tumbling it on. The most obvious is to just roll the jacket over a lube pad or grease your fingers an rub it around. How precise a bullet do you want to make? I am sure that there are as many opinions as noses (or other parts of the anatomy).

Obviously, Mr. Dave Corbin, corbins.com, is the most talkative about the subject. He has books on his web site for download or review... sans pictures... and he takes email questions. Then there are the users of his equipment in his directory of bullet makers... Someone in your area might be of great assistance... His brother Richard, rceco.com, is less talkative. luck

[jim saubier]

Castor oil and lanolin is what we use. We mixed up a pretty big batch and then put it into large syringes or into small tupperware containers. I am thinking that we used a 1:1 ration but would have to confirm that with my notes. For weighing we use a piece of wax paper on a Denver Instruments xx123 scale after resetting the tare with the piece of paper on the scale. The lube is then transferred to the 1 gallon glass tumble jug that has paddles glued to the inside to aid in tumbling.

We did use heat to mix our lube evenly, i believe in the microwave actually.

Silicone oil, not for me. how do you intend on degreasing your bullets to get it off. You will need some pretty nasty solvents to break down and remove the Silicone oil - I believe.
\
For core squirting lube, RCBS water soluble case lube is what we use. Our cores are rinsed and boiled using a detergent to help clean and oxidize them once they have been formed by the squirt die.

[Mntngoat]

I use 4 parts lanolin to 1 part castor oil by weight. I mixed up about a quart of this stuff a few months ago. Messy to measure and mix, but it keeps and works well.

Michael

[John Parrish]

Thanks for all of the great inputs. I'm trying to make the best bullets I can (benchrest competition quality). Actually, I'd like to make bullets as good as the ones made by my local maker. He uses silicone oil in his mix. I believe he cleans the new bullets in naptha. His bullets come out pristine. His dies obviously like his recipe - his bullets shoot great. Trying not to re-create the wheel.

John

[harrens@adelphia.net]

Besides all the excellent advice you've received here, try asking ypur "local bullet maker" how he mixes his lube. Sounds like he isn't trying to keep any secrets from you.
PS Jim, Apple told me you use baby oil.

[george ulrich]

50-50 lanolin and vasoline , or 4-1 ratio lanolin 4 parts to 1 part lard oil.lard oil has been used in the die trade for drawing metals for many years it can be used alone for bullet lube but its a little to runny to me. are your dies steel or carbide ? and what caliber are you going to make? george

[John Parrish]

50-50 lanolin and vasoline , or 4-1 ratio lanolin 4 parts to 1 part lard oil.lard oil has been used in the die trade for drawing metals for many years it can be used alone for bullet lube but its a little to runny to me. are your dies steel or carbide ? and what caliber are you going to make? george

I'm going to make 6MM bullets to start. I may try making 30 caliber bullets sometime in the future. I have ordered steel dies from Larry Blackmon. Do you think there's much concern for lube made with lard oil spoiling? If so, how can this be avaoided (short of keeping it the wife's kitched refrigerator). Thanks

[Dave Short]

The late Skip Otto gave me his recipe for lube a long time ago. I tried it against the lube i got with my dies, and the bullets came out of the point-up die much easier. I tried it without the silicone oil, and it was clear that something was amiss.

Skip's recipe: (all mixing done @ room temp)
4 oz. anhydrous lanolin
1/2 tablespoon silicone oil
lard oil as needed to reach "consistancy of room temperature butter."

The oil is from Ricoh corp. It is labeled "Ricoh silicone oil for FT series copiers." I had to order it from the nearest Ricoh store, which is about 50 miles away. It cost me around $35 for 16oz about 8 years ago.

I have had no problem removing the lube from the finished bullets. I do not wash my bullets anyway, I just put them in a big towel and buff them with kind of a sawing motion. I have been told by some top shooters that a film of lube is not detrimental; but actually seems to help keep copper fouling to a minimum.

I wish you well in your bullet making adventure. Shooting well with your own bullets is very satisfying...

-Dave- :)

[george ulrich]

I'm going to make 6MM bullets to start. I may try making 30 caliber bullets sometime in the future. I have ordered steel dies from Larry Blackmon. Do you think there's much concern for lube made with lard oil spoiling? If so, how can this be avaoided (short of keeping it the wife's kitched refrigerator). Thanks

no need to worry i have lard oil mixed with lanolin i have used for many years more than 10 anyway i also have a few gallons of lard oil i use around the shop never been refrigerated just kept closed when not in use. neither item has spoiled they are kept pretty much at 70-75 degrees if that makes any difference. george

[John Parrish]

no need to worry i have lard oil mixed with lanolin i have used for many years more than 10 anyway i also have a few gallons of lard oil i use around the shop never been refrigerated just kept closed when not in use. neither item has spoiled they are kept pretty much at 70-75 degrees if that makes any difference. george

Thanks. Do you know where lard oil can be purchased these days?
John

[george ulrich]

lard oil can be bought from geo. pfau co. jeffersonville in. its been quite a while since i bought any i know they are still there its where i used to live not sure which grade , best to talk to them and tell them you want lube for drawing metals if this doesn't work i can probably find the correct type . george

[John Parrish]

lard oil can be bought from geo. pfau co. jeffersonville in. its been quite a while since i bought any i know they are still there its where i used to live not sure which grade , best to talk to them and tell them you want lube for drawing metals if this doesn't work i can probably find the correct type . george

I'll look them up on the net. Thanks

John

[Eric Stecker]

These are all good methods. We use straight anhydrous lanolin for everything. We have experimented with many other combinations but end up going back to straight lanolin.

We cut a square piece of plastic and after removing static (if there is any) we put it on a grain scale (we have several Ohaus .00 grain scales) and zero the scale. The lanolin is scooped out of the tub with a blunt knife like piece of metal and scrapped onto the plastic. The plactis is weighed and the amount of lanolin is adjusted until the desired amount is achieved.

We take the square piece of plastic with the lanonlin to the glass jar and spread the lanolin inside the jar. The piece of plastic is wiped clean of lanilon. A blow dryer stlye heater (they are industrial strength I believe meant for painting applications) is used to blow hot air into the glass jar. The lanolin becomes liquid and is then spread around the inside of the jar until it is a very thin film.

The jackets are poured into the glass jar and the whole thing is tumbled for 1 hour.

Regards,
Eric

[george ulrich]

eric, i like the pure lanolin also exept i cut with m.e.k. to thin then tumble m.e.k. will evaporate when tumbling george this is just one of many cocktails that are used

[John Parrish]

eric, i like the pure lanolin also exept i cut with m.e.k. to thin then tumble m.e.k. will evaporate when tumbling george this is just one of many cocktails that are used

What does M.E.K. stand for?

[jim saubier]

MEK = Methyl Ethyl Ketone. A very potent solvent, very flammable and can have some harmful health concerns if mis-used. It can be bought at some hardware stores I believe, just be sure to read the label and understand the hazards before use.

[Mntngoat]

And don't spill it on the hood of your neighbors car it will peel the paint in no time.

ML

[John Parrish]

From what I understand, the amount of lube is measured by weight. How much lube is normally used for a batch of jackets? If you're using a bullet tray, is there a concern about the lube being removed in the process of loading the jackets into the trays.

[jim saubier]

the amount depends on your dies, the caliber, and so on and so forth. I'll give you a reference point for what I use with carbide bullet dies, the lube that we use, and .30 caliber 1" jacket bullets.

We use 7.5 grains typically for a bucket of 1,000 1" j4 jackets. The use of trays doesn't seem to bother the lube. This type of lube seems to be pretty sticky and adheres to the jackets pretty well. I would guess that the method described by Eric Stecker would be even better in terms of jackets holding the lube. The lube consistency resembles a solid moreso than a liquid, it is pretty thick stuff and seems to stick to the jackets more than your fingers.

When our dies were new, and we were still learning the process, we were using a good bit more lube, like 11 grains.

what type of dies are you using, what type of jackets, caliber, etc.? that will help folks give you better advice on amount of lube.

[george ulrich]

john, if i can remember right you are using blackmon dies you will need a little more for steel than carbide i would start at 6-8 grs. per 1000 6m.m. jackets and adjust from there. i would say a little more is better in the begining than not enough it becomes a little unnerving when a bullet gets stuck in die. george

[John Parrish]

I have steel dies on order from Larry Blackmon. We're going to be starting out making 6mm bullets using a .790" J4 jacket. Thanks for the info.
John

[Eric Stecker]

The right amount of lube is the amount that produces the result between getting the bullets stuck and deep lube lines. Sorting this out is part of the craft of bullet making and is the result of trial and error. It will not be the same for a given length when the jacket lot changes.

One rule of thumb we use is that you want the finished bullet to be longer that the jacket was when you started. For example, when you use the .790 long jackets you want the bullet to end up somewhere around .815 to .835 long (if you are making flat based 7ish tangent ogive bullets). This means that the copper is flowing forward rather than compressing. We believe this is better.

Regards,
Eric

[george ulrich]

The right amount of lube is the amount that produces the result between getting the bullets stuck and deep lube lines. Sorting this out is part of the craft of bullet making and is the result of trial and error. It will not be the same for a given length when the jacket lot changes.

One rule of thumb we use is that you want the finished bullet to be longer that the jacket was when you started. For example, when you use the .790 long jackets you want the bullet to end up somewhere around .815 to .835 long (if you are making flat based 7ish tangent ogive bullets). This means that the copper is flowing forward rather than compressing. We believe this is better.

Regards,
Eric

this is absoloutly correct if material is not lengthening during point up and collapsing the jacket is sliding on the seated core. i prefer to use the minimal amount of lube i can get away with but for learning i would use a little more just to be safe. george

[John Parrish]

john, if i can remember right you are using blackmon dies you will need a little more for steel than carbide i would start at 6-8 grs. per 1000 6m.m. jackets and adjust from there. i would say a little more is better in the begining than not enough it becomes a little unnerving when a bullet gets stuck in die. george

George:

When you are adding lube to your lube jar for a fresh batch of jackets, do you wipe out any remaining lube from the previous batch, or do you add the fresh lube to what may be remaining in the jar?

[Mntngoat]

John when I tumble jackets there is sometimes enough lube left over in the jar to not require adding any more. I have never cleaned out the lube jar before adding more.

[george ulrich]

john, no i do not clean remaining lube out. that being said the first time you lube jar you will need to add more to get jar coated i would at least double the amount for the first time,jackets should feel stickey when they come out . george

[John Parrish]

Thanks George:

That is what I was hoping you'd say.

John

[J. Valentine]

Castor oil and lanolin is what we use. We mixed up a pretty big batch and then put it into large syringes or into small tupperware containers. I am thinking that we used a 1:1 ration but would have to confirm that with my notes. For weighing we use a piece of wax paper on a Denver Instruments xx123 scale after resetting the tare with the piece of paper on the scale. The lube is then transferred to the 1 gallon glass tumble jug that has paddles glued to the inside to aid in tumbling.

We did use heat to mix our lube evenly, i believe in the microwave actually.

Silicone oil, not for me. how do you intend on degreasing your bullets to get it off. You will need some pretty nasty solvents to break down and remove the Silicone oil - I believe.
\
For core squirting lube, RCBS water soluble case lube is what we use. Our cores are rinsed and boiled using a detergent to help clean and oxidize them once they have been formed by the squirt die.

Silicon Oil is very disolvable in any liquid hydrocarbon but quite water resistant. It is a very good release agent and has a low surface tension which allows it to spread out over a surface much better than mineral oil or water. It spreads dramaticly under pressure.
It posesses poor lubrication between steel on steel but good lubrication between Bronze on steel or Zink on steel .
It can attack rubber products to some degree.
Would be difficult to remove with water and detergents however.
Thats why I clean my bullets in liquid hydrocarbon Shelite before moly coating.

[georgeld]

Ok, the lube is taken care of now.
Once you've got the bullets made.
How do you clean them up?
Do you polish them? Some do, some don't. I much prefer polished if its possible.

What with, how, how far?
Thank you

[J. Valentine]

Ok, the lube is taken care of now.
Once you've got the bullets made.
How do you clean them up?
Do you polish them? Some do, some don't. I much prefer polished if its possible.

What with, how, how far?
Thank you

Depends on what else you are going to do.
If you are going to shoot the bullets without coating then just a good rub off in an old towl or soft cloth is ok.
The thing with polishing in tumblers and such is that you are risking some meplat and base edge damage when you do it.
Some tumbling systems are good some are not. You have just bought an expensive die system and done your best to produce a precision bullet so only tumble if you have to for coating etc.
You should START with nice clean jackets so no extra polishing should be required.
If you are going to store the bullets for a fair while until you use them , store in sealed plastic containers.
Don't immerse finished bullets in any liquid cleaner if you can avoid it as it is not a good idea to get moisture inside the jacket that may not evaporate easily.
If you intend to coat the bullets , Moly Danzac or whatever you will need to clean off any swaging lubricant.
I use Shellite (( Liquid Hydrocarbon ) White gas or Coleman Fuel) . which will evaporate quickly and not leave any residue. Other hydrocarbons Like Turps have additives that leave residues Metho also.
Rubb the bullets off as above and wash twice in a clean Liquid Hydrocarbon . Place in clean trays to dry , out in the sun or use a hair dryer to speed up evaporation but not closer than 12 inches . Do not use any paint stripper guns or open flames as you could melt some bullet cores. Leave for at least an hour to dry.
Don't handle with your hands , Coat as soon as dry.

[ackleyman]

I was taught a different method that is not messy at all, and idiot proof with no complicated formulas by Steve Chernicky, that built the Olympic 22 rifles and Gene Harwood, former NBRSA director (Gene had over a many, many sets of bullet making dies).

Lee sizing wax (the white stuff that is $2.00 per tube)mixed 50/50 with water in the micro wave oven. Heat wax just enough to where it will mix with warm water. YOU DO NOT WANT THE WAX TO BOIL!!! Let wax sit up till it becomes firm.

Now comes the easy part. You will need a one gallon plastic jug, like the ones that you serve iced tea in or like condiments come in for restaurants.

You will dip your finger in the wax and fill the first joint on your index finger full of wax. Smear the wax around the inside walls of the jug. Put about 1/2 bucket of jackets in the one gallon jug and put the top back on the jug. Spin the bullets around the inside edges of the jug, which will act as a centrifuge, the process will take 60 seconds at most. Dump the jackets out on a paper towel. You want the jackets to look a little milky, with no globs on the jackets. If you see globs, but the jackets back in the jug, add a few more jackets and you will dilute the wax on the bullet jackets. If the jackets do not look milky in color, add a slight amount of wax on the edges of the bucket walls and centrifuge the bullet jackets once again for 60 seconds.

Now for the very best part, for your guys that are shooting your own bullets, try shooting the bullets with the residual wax left on the bullets. You will have to work up a load for the waxed bullets, it usually takes a very slight amount of additional powder. The result of shooting waxed bullets is that the standard deviation will go down to nothing and copper fouling is dramatically decreased.

I made several hundred thousand bullets using the wax, and I never stuck a jacket in my Bob Simensen carbide dies. I never had dents in my jackets, and I never had any kind of mess to deal with...ever.

The wax works so well that you can make MEF bullets by cutting a longer punch pin that will contact the top of the core instead of the meplat on top of the bullet.

I made over about 100,000 bullets with about 1 gallon of wax...it really goes a long ways.

Once you try the Wax, you will give the lanolin to someone that you do not like.

[Utah Shooter]

john, no i do not clean remaining lube out. that being said the first time you lube jar you will need to add more to get jar coated i would at least double the amount for the first time,jackets should feel stickey when they come out . george
George, so when we are talking about this there should not just be 1 application with a new jar but 2? This really confuses me. I thought we were to start with cleanliness first?

[george ulrich]

I'm not sure what you are asking. if starting with a new jar, then yes I would double the amount if not more. after that use what you would normally use. as for cleanliness wash jackets first and keep jar sealed when not in use. the only residue will be copper wash still migrating from jackets..

[Utah Shooter]

Sorry let me attempt to clarify.

I thought one of the factors in making an accurate bullet is consistency? Although it may be a small amount in difference, would not starting with a clean jar every time insure that the amount applied to the jacket is the exact same?

I know when I am starting with a clean jar how much lube I will have inside. If I start with a jar that already has lube in it and then apply 1 grain per 100 cases then how do I calculate how much lube I really have in there?

I must be over thinking this, right?

[george ulrich]

NO not really if lube amount is small it just migrates out ejection pin hole. have you ever looked in die where ejec. pin assem is after making bullets all the goo in there is excess lube. I tend to like to keep things simple, there are bullet makers that have won nats. in the last year that clean nothing, not jackets or cores. This just leads to premature die wear but it works for them. get lube amount correct for the jackets you are using and core seating correct and all will work....