The ol slow and heavy vs fast and light debate with a twist

[squirrel_slayer]

Hello Guys, Wanted to bounce an idea off you guys to help me make a decision. Trying to decide on a load for a fall whitetail hunt.

My initial thoughts were something like an 85gr sgk or 95gr nbt (this is a 6mm wildcat) however I've been crunching the #'s and on the other side of the coin I'm leaning towards a 105gr berger VLD Hunting or 103 eld-x.

This is a small capacity case so I'm not working with .243 velocities (similar to a 6x45 but slightly shorter and less case taper)

Anyways Even if I launched those heavy for caliber pill at a few 100 ft/sec faster the slow and steady catches up quickly and before 300yds even the 103/5 is ahead in energy and carries it out to nearly 500 yds before meeting the velocity threshold of expansion (1800ft/sec)

Another pro is the wind bucking capability, yes the drop is notably more but with laser range finders and turrets/bdc reticles is that even really a valid concern?

I don't intend on making a 300+ yd shot, but if a prime target presented itself I'd like to have the ability to make the shot vs not.

So what's your guys thoughts?

Any experience with said bullets in the same velocity realm? or others that are worth looking into?

Thanks, George

[TinMan]

You have to watch the twist rate and bullet length for your wildcat. I know my 243 likes the 85gr SGK in the 1:10. The 107gr SMK needs a 1:8 twist in the 6BR. What case and twist do you have?

[JSH]

If it is similar to 6x45/6TCU, you are not going to get enough speed for expansion with the heavies.

I can put you in contact with a fellow in Shiner Texas that has more knowledge than anyone I know of with this type speed and cartridge. He has shot a lot of hogs and deer and done some pretty extensive work with different bullets. If your bound and determined to run a heavy I will guess he points you towards a
Nosler ballistic tip.
PM if you want to email him.
I used a 6TCU carbine about 25 years or so ago. I still used the Sierra single shot pistol bullet and kept my shots at 200 and under. It worked but lacked some horse power in my opinion.
Jeff

[squirrel_slayer]

Barrel is a 1:8 twist, case is in essence a 6tcu -.100" but throated for the heavies so for all intense purposes it has the same useable case capacity compared to a "standard" 6tcu

JSH i'll shoot you a PM thanks.

[JSH]

;) info sent.

[squirrel_slayer]

I got in touch with JSH's buddy and I'm leaning more towards the 87gr Vmax now. It sports a respectable BC for it's weight and at the velocity window i'll be using it should work well.

I see hornady also has a 90 ELD-x now as well so I may pick up a box of each and play with them in some wet pack or something at simulated velocities (ie. reduced loads to ~1800 ft/sec) as I'm more concerned about the big end performance.

I found an interesting article about the 87 vmax on speed goats. one guy uses that bullet exclusively and has taken many shots from 400-700yds (.243 win velocities) with his furthest at 765yds and he said it mushroomed nicely and was found on the offside hide (impact velocity was sub 1700ft/sec) He brought up a good point though about expending all of the energy in the animal vs it punching through and putting the energy in the dirt(which is also what JSH's buddy was hinting towards). He claimed that he never had an animal go more than 40-50 yds after the shot and all 1 shot kills.

[JSH]

He has done a lot of work in years past with 6mm,6.5 and 7mm at some what reduced velocities coming from single shot pistols.

Even with his health problems he still gets some shooting in along with input of his loads.
Jeff

[17tbs]

http://www.rathcoombe.net/sci-tech/ballistics/wounding.html
http://www.rkba.org/research/fackler/wrong.html

Directly from Sierra bullets website: "In rifles chambered for either the 6mm Remington or 243 Winchester cartridge, this 80 grain #1515 Blitz bullet is dependably frangible and has no peer as a varmint bullet at velocities delivered by these cartridges. The Sierra Spitzer boat tail shape assures a flat trajectory, good resistance to crosswinds and vertical winds, and high-energy delivery even at extreme ranges. Built at the request of numerous varmint shooters, this bullet will bring out the best in both a shooter and his rifle for all varmint hunting applications.

In handguns, the soft core and thin jacket of this 80 grain #1515 Blitz bullet will deliver positive expansion at handgun velocities together with the accuracy and ballistic efficiency of the famous Sierra boat tail shape.

The #1515 was introduced in 1994."

If you are going faster than 2700fos, then the 87gr you mentioned above probably would be perfect for broadside, though I would not use it for a raking shot.

If you have lower velocities around 2500fps, then this is the bullet I would use if your muzzle velocities are what I would expect, somewhere below 2500fps., or if you are trying to stretch your distance.

If you are intending to consume the meat, then I would reconsider using a lead bullet if you do not want health issues.
https://undark.org/article/lead-ammunition-bullets-hunting-copper/

https://4al52k24l8r51wpym5i46ltd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/01/270cal_lead_copper_400.jpg

Below, venison packed for human consumption killed with a lead bullet.
https://4al52k24l8r51wpym5i46ltd-wpengine.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/sites/2/2017/01/Venison.jpg



Bottom line for me is that I would not hunt for meat using a lead bullet since I know it is stupid to go around licking lead paint or eating gut piles left by deer or elk hunters, so I just take head shots if using a lead bullet and bury the head and quite a bit of the neck.

Hey, what do I know, I just have a trauma medicine background and you still have the liberty to go on eating lead if you want.

Personally I would only recommend a Barnes X and one other manufacturer, if you are going to eat the meat.
They always worked for me, and they do expand. https://www.midwayusa.com/product/594032/barnes-tipped-triple-shock-x-ttsx-bullets-243-caliber-6mm-243-diameter-80-grain-spitzer-boat-tail-lead-free-box-of-50

Here is the second option if hunting for meat is your goal, or even if it is not, I would also not pass up this option:
http://www.gscustomusa.com/243075HV046.html

If you have questions, they have answers, just like Barnes& Sierra etc.
http://www.gsgroup.co.za/contact.html

[squirrel_slayer]

Decided to try hyroforming and came up with this.
https://i.imgur.com/QnemyPDl.jpg
It's not 100% mind you but gives you an idea of how the cartridge will be. Thats a 105gr nosler RDF in there ;)
https://i.imgur.com/WAx4oK2l.jpg
Next to a .223 rem for comparison

[17tbs]

THAT CARTRIDGE LOOKS LIKE A WINNER! What barrel length are you using it in?

[squirrel_slayer]

Well I didn't get drawn for deer after all. But I made a 14" barrel for my first barrel. Guess I will have plenty of time to play with it and do bullet testing.
https://i.imgur.com/AzGeFTml.jpg
I still need to profile in the gas block seat and thread it.

I'm going to build it into a Mini RECCE style upper and probably only shoot it suppressed.

I have another 25" blank tucked away that I would like to build a Howa Mini with with DBM and bullets seated much further out so useable case capacity is greater.

It should do well at distance for such a small package.

[IOWADON]

I see this discussion was a long time ago but I had a similar decision to make around 10 years ago. Back then we had a January rifle season for antlerless deer. I used a TCR-87 with a slow twist 29-inch 6MM-06 barrel with 70-grain Nosler Ballistic Tips at almost 4,000 fps for "close range" deer and a heavy barrel .338-.378 Weatherby for "long range" deer. I was concerned about rickochets from the .338-.378 so wanted bullets which would come apart except for the long shots which I would pass up if there were a farm place within a mile behind it. With the 70-grain bullets I shot quite a few deer (possibly 30) and at 200 to 300 yards they generally ran 50 yards or so before going down but I hit one deer with it which ran off. So then I got a fast 26-inch fast-twist barrel made for it, again in 6MM-06 and worked up a load for 105-grain Berger VLD bullets at just short of 3,300 fps. With this load, between a grandson and myself we probably shot over 20 deer. Of course these were does, not bucks, but they would take a couple steps and fall over, even at 400+ yards. My grandson got one at 456 yards (measured with a laser rangefinder). There was only a problem with one deer which was a smaller doe at probably less than 200 yards. It was quartering towards us and my grandson hit it in the point of the shoulder. The bullet blew up and did not even penetrate into the rib cage. It took a couple more shots to get it down. That bullet is very fragile and if I were shooting a big buck with it, I would only shoot at the lung area rather than expect it to penetrate through a shoulder.