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georgeld
03-12-2008, 02:55 AM
Have been doing other things lately and not getting on the computer much.

last night I was on castboolits.gunloads.com/swaging threads.
Someone posted a picture of a massive die he'd made that swage's hunks of lead into long piece's of lead wire.

Do believe I understand the way it's made now and am thinking about making a setup before long.

Bore a bottomed hole about 1- 1/2" dia with at least an inch thickness in the head left. Drill core dia. hole/s in this area. Fill the cavity with hunks of lead. Ram that's turned to just slip fit into this hole is jacked into it with a heavy hydraulic jack. 12-20 ton. The force has to be pretty heavy, so everything has to be built strong enough to hold up against such force and not bust things.

The lead is extruded out these hole's into strings of wire. Once you're done. Just use those lead wires as bullet cores.

Check it out yourself and see what you think. Would be a cheap way to produce this expensive, sometimes hard to find wire.

REM
03-12-2008, 12:25 PM
George

I have seen this done at the Hornady plant and it is a quite simple operation
BUT the amount of pressure necessary and the strength needed of the components used would make it difficult to do at home I would think.
Would be interesting to try though. If the dia of the die container were kept small enough maybe the pressure needed would be workable.

Richard

Mntngoat
03-12-2008, 02:25 PM
I have lots of lead entrails left over from making cores could these be melted down and cast into wire to be run back through the coring die?

ML

DittoHead
03-12-2008, 05:50 PM
Wouldn't you have to melt all your scrap and mix it so you end up with consistent weight from one part of the wire to another?

Or is this just assumed?

I'm probably putting my foot in my mouth, but this whole bullet-making thing interests me. :o

george ulrich
03-12-2008, 07:55 PM
george yes this is how it works. it does take a whole lot of pressure so be careful. you can't move this to quickly its kind of slow but it can be done. a little tip heat lead to around 200- 250 degrees it will flow a whole lot easier. michael, yes squirts can be reclaimed and reextruded. or you can give to a buddy to make fishing jigs. george

Bulletsmith
03-13-2008, 12:31 AM
I made a lead extruder about 5 years ago.It was quite a process to get everything working correctly.I originally had a 6 " piston with a 16" stroke.I welded the frame together,basically it is a massive o frame idea that sits horizontal.The main frame was built from 14" I-beam.I then ran 1" steel plates full length of the I -beam which is 8' long.Over top of the piston to complete the o frame,I took a piece of 4"x2" flatsteel and welded it in place. The nozzle was machined with changable dies that were needed for wire for various calibers.Then 4 molds were machined smoth for billets which hold about 14 lbs of lead.The trial run was a bitter disapointment,the ram which I ran up to 3100 psi did not extrude anything below .245 wire.The 6 inch ram is equivalant to what is used in a 50 ton press.The next step was to get a custom built 8.5" ram built to fit in the o-frame press, which replaced the 6".I now can build wire from .165 all the way up to .650 for the big uns.I also have found by putting the billets on a heater for 10 minutes really helps pressure needs,between the heat and the big ram,2600 psi is all that is need to extrude.I take all the tailings from the squirt dies and always remelt them.
The piston to cylinder fit is about 10thou clearance,even with a fit that tight a little always leaks back and should be cleaned off between billets.A little swage lube put on the billet really helps as well.This rig has really worked well,having several tons behind it allready

georgeld
03-13-2008, 06:40 AM
I got this info/idea from castboolits as mentioned. There's a picture there of a set up powered by a 12 ton hyd jack, hand pumped. He makes about 1"x4" slugs to run thru at a time.

Since I have several 20ton jacks and welding equip, lathe, and hunks and piles of steel. Am figuring to turn the dies from heavy round, ram would be about 2" dia with just enough pocket in the bottom to hold the jacks ram steady. By the time there's much pressure applied the ram would be into the hole in the top die far enough it couldn't come apart to be of any danger.

Bulletsmith: sounds like we have the same habits!! Never ever go too lightly. What dia's are your wires??

Hey, how about some pictures of this extruder you've got. Might make for some idea's among the rest of us.

I was figuring to turn the head die out of 3 or 4" round about 4-6" long. Leave at least an inch head over the cavity and drill 3-6 hole's of bullet size's in that. Say: 2-.17's, 1 or 2 for 22's, a 30, 40-45 cal.
That way, there'd be enough output to make it worthwhile messing with. No bigger than the hole's would be over an area of 2" dia. It shouldn't weaken the head of the die enough to matter. Inch thick steel will hold a bunch of pressure. But, a 20ton jack would put out a bunch too. But, this many hole's should allow the pressure to bleed off quick enough as the lead flows thru them.
I'm open to ideas and suggestions. Right now, I'm out of commission until the middle of next week. Have just started gathering iron. man said he'd get a hunk of round cut off for me by Tuesday. Am figuring on welding the framework out of 1"x3-4" flat bar on edge against the pressure. May pin the die in place, or weld a bracket to it to hold it in place. But, will allow it to float around a bit.

Lube is a must I'm sure, as this other post stated. GU, thanks for the warming up tip.
Thank you all for the input.

Bulletsmith
03-13-2008, 01:33 PM
Georgeld,

The dies will make .165,.180,.200,.210,.245,.265,.360.425,.452,.500,. and finally .650.The billets are 3" x10" and thats why so much pressure is needed to extrude.The orfice is contained in the housing with 12 5/8x4" capscrews.
The whole machine weighs approx 2300 lbs and is run with tractor hydraulics.
I hate to admit it but my computer skills are very limited and I do not plan on perfecting them ,a picture is probally out of the question ,sorry!!!!
Multiple wires coming out at the same time,hmmmm I would really like to watch the first time you you it, be a good giggle I bet,one wire is enough to drive you crazy,good thing there are flow controls on the tractor.Hey,a word of warning,the lead comes out of the extruder very hot, leather gloves are a must
at least with mine
best of luck
B

bohica2xo
03-13-2008, 06:06 PM
Back in the early '80's there was a renewed interest in making leaded glass windows. The "H" shaped lead Came that is used to build those windows is extruded.

I made a couple of miles of that stuff when nobody had it available. I went through the "how hard can it be?" stages, even though I have experience building extrusion dies. After all it was soft lead, not 7075 aluminum... After getting it right I was amazed that they managed at all centuries ago.

The multiple hole die would be a huge PITA, if you could make it work at all. With a hydraulic jack, I suspect you will get several inches of .45 diameter, and a few thousandths of .17 diameter.

Secondary drawing can be necessary for precise size control, but since bulletmakers swage cores to size & weight you can skip this step. I found that I could change the size of the came by as much as 20% by simply stretching it as it came out of the die hot.

Many good tips in this thread already. If there was a market for it, I might build some dies. A big part of the price for lead wire is shipping, so making what you need from local stock makes some sense with the price of fuel today.

B.

georgeld
03-15-2008, 08:15 AM
Hmm, thanks for info I hadn't thought about.
Without experience at all with it. Might be good to pay attention to
what you have to say.

What about two or three hole's the same size then? Would all of it flow thru one, and starve the rest?

I'd only power it with a hand pumped hyd jack. Have a couple 20t and 15, 12 etc. Nothing in the way of power. But, never know when a man goes to scrounging around. Amazing things come out of the ground, out from under iron pile's and such.

Thanks much for the eddicational effects.

george ulrich
03-15-2008, 10:49 AM
george,no it would flow through all just like a squirt die with multiple holes also the more holes the less pressure, but you would have to balance the amount of holes to your usable pressure otherwise they would not all fill. george p.s. sierra's are setup with multiple holes

ironhorse
03-16-2008, 11:53 PM
George, we make all our lead wire in our shop using Richard Corbins 8 inch hydra swage and dies he made. He uses a lead cylinder about 4 inches by 3/4 inch and the die has multiple inserts for different size wire. Just one size at a time though, I'm not sure the lead would flow with multiple size holes. With just the one hole in my die you really can make lots of wire. We go through several hundred pounds a week with just the one die and seem to keep with production just fine.

georgeld
03-17-2008, 05:57 AM
what's the chance of seeing some pictures of the die/s and operation?
What kind of production are you running? Don't believe I've heard about your deal yet.
Thanks

ironhorse
03-17-2008, 01:51 PM
George, I run "Rocky Mountain Bullets". We produce 2 -3 thousand bullet a week, mostly custom bullets for 338,375 and the 408 chey tac. Anyways the dies are very simple, just a extruder die to accept the 3/4 by 4 inch lead with a hole the size of the wire you want in the top and a 3/4 punch to push the lead up into the die and out comes wire. Next time we make wire I'll try and remember to take some pic's. Maybe go to Dave Corbins web site and I think he has some pictures of the dies he produces. Richard Corbin built my dies but Dave is his brother and the look the same. www.corbins.co

georgeld
03-18-2008, 05:36 AM
Ironhorse:
Thanks for the info. Shall keep that in mind.
Hmm, what wt .375's?? They work in the H&H?
IF so, I'd like to see some of them.

I've printed Corbins books, and things out months ago. Still lacking on some details I'd like to see.
Re: wire swaging dies.

Question: Each size has it's own die head? What dia is the outside steel? Do they thread to the press, or pin somehow?

For the outlet holes, are they bushed, or just drilled holes?
When you make wire, when you change slugs, do they combine into one continous wire, or each one makes it's own length of wire?

Thank you, appreciate all the replies and info.

ironhorse
03-21-2008, 03:43 AM
George, I have a single die with several different size bushings that fit into the top of the die for the different wire sizes and then a threaded bushing holds these in place. The major threaded part of the die is 1.5 inch and the top portion looks to be about 2 inch. This die threads into the top of the press and the punch fits down in the bottom where the ram comes up and pushes the lead wire out the top. And when I make wire it come out in just a single length, not continous.
Oh, the 375 bullets are 380gr. ultra low drag type bullets, but we can make most any size. I have shot them out of my 375 H&H but I'm not sure they would be the best choice for the H&H.

georgeld
03-21-2008, 06:05 AM
Ironhorse and others:
Thanks for the continous responses.
Have a little update. Yesterday, got to digging in the iron pile and found three ft section of: 2"OD x 1.25" ID with a smooth bore. Believe I'm going to hone the bore with a cyl hone. Have about an inch, or 1 1/2" deep on one end threaded and a foot of rod in matching size threaded. Then cut off pc's for exchangeable top bushings. Will turn a ram so it's just barely a slip fit.

Am thinking of milling rounded groove's on each side about half the depth of wall thickness. For supporting rods to punch thru bars on the press frame to hold the body in place. Believe this will work fine.
Do wish the bore was smaller, but, use what you've got, right? This is nice clean, new steel. I cut a 6" pc and faced the ends yesterday. SO it's on the way already. Makes more sense than trying to dill and bore a 3-4" hunk of round. This will closely fit the ram on the jack too.

More as I get to it.
Headed out of town to see a doc today and smoked the engine in the truck again. Gonna find another owner this time! Enough, I quit!

J. Valentine
03-21-2008, 10:40 PM
You can just mould cores at home with a cheap gang mould and a lead melting pot. The cores are made a bit too long and then swaged down in the core swage die.
I can't see any difference in accuracy from wire cores to molded cores.
Not in my hunting bullets anyway .
I have hunting .308's that put the first 3 shots in a .7 group consisitantly and sometimes tighter with moulded cores.
Once you get the mould warmed up you can make 1000 cores in an afternoon.
However I see you want to see if you can do it , so by all means give it a go.

georgeld
03-22-2008, 08:44 AM
Thank you for the info etc.
Life has gotten in the way once again.
May work on these things over the weekend to get my mind
off problems. Never fails, when getting started on some off the
wall projects like this that other things play bombs with a man's
life, savings, income, and tolerance. Anyone else have these
problems??

Wish you well,

J. Valentine
03-24-2008, 02:55 AM
Life is what happens while you are making plans to do something else.

georgeld
03-25-2008, 11:16 AM
Didn't get much done over the weekend.
But, Monday I did stop at a machine shop and talked to the owner I've known for yrs about threading the ID of this tube. Said to bring it in, we can do it. Thinks he might even have some all thread the right size after it's threaded. That would be nice n easy.

Picked up a 4ft hunk of 1 1/4" rod today too. So I've got plenty to turn a ram out of now. IF it cleans up before getting too small for the bore. We'll see.

Take care, thanks, (ps to GW: once more, trk engine/cracked head #3!!!!!)

Vibe
03-25-2008, 06:45 PM
Yep. Heated lead extrudes a lot "easier" than cold. I used to work for a wire and cable maker that extruded a lead casing around the jacketed electrical cable assembly as a moisture barrier during the vulcanizing process. We would go through several tons of lead every day. Then after the wire jacket was cured, we'd strip the lead off remelt and use it again. We had 3 huge screw drive continuous extruders that would put a 1/4" thick case around a 4" dia cable at several feet per minute. The trick was that if the lead was too hot, the screw would just churn, too cold and the amperage in the drive motor went too high, so we had to cool the lead (with a steam water mix) in the extruder screw at a constant rate that would balance the two conditions. One days production through an extruder of this sort would make over 60,000 lbs of whatever size wire you wanted - that would last a week of three I'd bet. It would not surprize me that a "small" 10hp unit could be built if someone could justify the expense of the tapered extrusion screw and heat/cool tapered barrel. Well that and the rather large thrust bearing behind the screw (Ours were 1500cm in diameter).

georgeld
03-27-2008, 09:53 AM
1500CM?? how big is that???

Ok, am on the way with the wire making die now.
Took the heavy walled tubing to the shop for ID threading and to get a foot of all thread to match. "not over about ten bucks a ft, and $30/half hour for the bore."

Also, picked up 5 feet of 3/4"x3" flat bar and 6' of 1 1/4" round for the asking.
Turned 8" pc of round to fit the bore real nice. Went to get my jack out of the shop truck and all my jacks are gone, lock on the box was broken too. Can't believe a person can't even leave old junk hyd jacks in the truck boxes without it being stolen. What's this world coming to??

Vibe
03-28-2008, 01:17 PM
1500CM?? how big is that???


Bigger than I intended to type, that's for sure. I meant 150cm or 1500mm - right at 5' in diameter.

georgeld
05-16-2008, 06:56 AM
That's what I thought you might have meant.

Ok, here's an update on my lead wire press. AND A request for some help in materials.

Picked up the barrel: 2" OD, 1 1/4" ID x8" with one end threaded 1.5" deep to 1 1/2" x 12thd.

Had him mill a groove in the side of two flat bars: 3/4"x 3" x 12", stopped 3/4" short of the top edge to hold the barrel in place as a stop.
This machining I couldn't do with the tooling I have cost me $50. Double what I expected but, for a good cause/investment I think.
All the steel was n/c.

Drilled a 3/4" hole on each side of the groove to clamp the barrel in place. Yet can be taken out for any reasons that come up later.
Cut legs from 1/4"x2"sq tubing to fit these bars. Have the iron, but, haven't decided for sure what I want to use for the bottom under the jack. Should have a way to hold it in place so may use plate with clips welded to it, or bolt clamps maybe.

The only reason it's not working now is: I need the all thread yet. Does anyone have some pieces of: 1 1/2" x 12thd?? All I need is 2" long pcs, could use any number of them, before it's done I'd like to have a dozen pieces. As these will be my dies drilled for the lead wire hole's. I'd be glad to pay expenses to get some of this all thread.

Ordered a 2ft section from Grainger the 3rd. Today, couldn't find the local number, only Denvers 800. They didn't find where I'd ordered it. Drove across town to the store and the incompetant on the counter couldn't either. I got p'd and told him to forget it, I'd buy it somewhere else.

Called MSC: "can't sell it except COD, or credit card. Both doubled the cost. Don't find it that big at Wholesale tool, sent an e'mail asking and ordered more tooling for the lathe that I need.

Fastenal wants $80 for two ft pc, they'll have it Tuesday. Man that's expensive. Don't think I'll do that. Local machine shop has a foot of it for $27. May go that way, but, still mighty expensive material. Don't know for sure if that's the only piece he has, or if there might be some shorts too. May drop in tomorrow and see. Thinking of offering $20 for it.

Update when there's more. So far, it's looking real good.

larryinIA
09-25-2008, 02:01 AM
I had been thinking of this thread, and while searching something else up, I found it. Do you have an update? Any pics? The curiosity is, and has been killing me. Thanks,

larry

ironhorse
09-25-2008, 09:37 PM
Hi Larry, didn't take any pictures yet but if you go to Corbins web sit he has some good pictured of the type he sells. The extruder I made is coppied after the one he sells and it works great with the hydrolic press. One thing I see is every one is trying to press really large peace of lead. These only use .750 by about 6 or 7 inch round inguts. I get a chunk of .312 lead wire about 30 inches long from my extruder.There nice and easy to work with, we store them in 6 inch pvc tubes so the stay nice and straight.
Rocky Mountain Bullets,LLC
George

larryinIA
09-26-2008, 01:15 PM
I'll check them out. The curiosity sometimes drives me nuts!

larry