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Nor Cal Mikie
10-22-2012, 01:23 AM
20 Vt case measures 1.400". What about cutting one down to 1.200 or even 1.00? Less powder = less recoil? Seeing hits through the scope for sure.:)
Take the botom end off a full length die and you're ready to go? And run the reamer in "just far enough" to chamber the case?
I know, I sure think of some crazy stuff. But isn't this shooting thing just made for crazy ideas?;)

Bill K
10-22-2012, 01:25 AM
Why not get a 20 hornet AI ? If you want a smaller cartridge, another thought :) Bill K

larryinIA
10-22-2012, 01:34 AM
Sounds about like a Shrew.


Larry

Nor Cal Mikie
10-22-2012, 01:34 AM
I was just thinking of the case "without" a rim. Never delt with a rimmed case.

Hotshot
10-22-2012, 01:38 AM
Let's make it 1/2 inch long and call it the 20 Short Mikie.

johno
10-22-2012, 02:37 AM
20 garin

johno

Nor Cal Mikie
10-22-2012, 03:50 AM
I was thinking of going short "a little at a time" till I got the desired results.
Start at 1.200 and see how it works, then go a "little shorter"?
1/2" long would be too much of a jump.:confused: Kinda like chopping a barrel an inch at a time and checking results as you go?
Anybody "downloaded" a 20VT to see how much you could reduce the recoil and still make it shootable? I'am thinking Lil Gun might work?
And with a Savage barrel, just run a reamer in deep enough so the case would chamber and you still have enough case sticking out for the extractor to grab onto.:cool: A lot easier to set up than working with a Renmington, Cooper, etc.:cool:
Give it to Mikie, he'll try anything!:D
And with the 20 VT, your still working with 18 to 20 grain loads like the .221 Fireball.
Chop that load by 1/3 or 1/2 and you get less recoil? I'am thinking there's more to it than that but it's got me thinking.

l h jenkins
10-22-2012, 03:59 AM
other than it has a rim what you are talking about powderwise is a 218 mashburn bee.

Nor Cal Mikie
10-22-2012, 04:11 AM
We're still talking in the range 16.5 to 17.5 grains of powder. I want to go less.;) Thinking maybe 10 to 11 and fill the case?

drewh
10-22-2012, 04:53 AM
Getting into the case capacity of the killer bee, love it in the 17 caliber no experience with the 20, but there are a few around.
Drew

william t. oviatt
10-22-2012, 04:57 AM
I think you would have a very efficient case! But, might have some feeding issues with almost a one-to-one ratio of length vs height. It is hard to imagine a better performing case of the 10-11 grains than the Hornet. But, I sure would like to hear your results, if you follow through on this.
Bill

Joe O
10-22-2012, 08:31 AM
My 20 Ackley Bee is just right,15-17gr AA1680 move a 32gr bullet @3500-3700.

Mntngoat
10-22-2012, 01:31 PM
talk to ray H. about his marmot and gopher.

ML

Gary in Illinois
10-22-2012, 01:43 PM
Mike,

You are talking about a 20 Shrew. I don't know anyone who has made one of these in a 20 caliber but there are a few 17 Shrews around. The case is right at 1" long and holds 10 - 12 grains of powder.

Case is made from 221, 222, 223 family of brass. There are several steps involved in making the brass but it isn't rocket science if I can do it!

In the 17 Shrew performance is in the 3,500 - 3,750 fps range with 20 grain bullets (almost mirrors the 17 AH) and absolutely NO recoil in my XP-100 rifle. Accuracy with my 11 twist Shilen barrel is very good.

I have often wondered how this cartridge would work as a 20 caliber. I can neck a couple of cases up to 20 caliber and send them to you if you like. Let me know and good luck if you decide to pursue this project.

Bill K
10-22-2012, 02:52 PM
We're still talking in the range 16.5 to 17.5 grains of powder. I want to go less.;) Thinking maybe 10 to 11 and fill the case?

Now you are even more closely to a rimmed/necked down/improved 20 Hornet AI. Bill K:D

Nor Cal Mikie
10-22-2012, 03:11 PM
Building dies would be the hardest part. Get someone to chuck up a .204 Ruger and cut it down to the length I want.
And being a Savage lover, all I have to do is shorten the back end of a .204 Ruger barrel to fit/chamber the shortened case and I'd be in business.
Single feeding would eliminate any problems. No ejector rod so the short/fat case stays on the bolt head till you pick it off.:cool:

I'am thinking a 1" case would be a little too short. (at first) More along the lines of 1.200 for starters?

ramos
10-22-2012, 03:18 PM
Yeah, because that 20VT kicks like a MULE! Just kidding :) . If your preference is a rimless cartridge, you might take a look at the Garin offerings as others have suggested. Solves the die issue.

Daryl
10-22-2012, 03:47 PM
Mike,

You are talking about a 20 Shrew. I don't know anyone who has made one of these in a 20 caliber but there are a few 17 Shrews around. The case is right at 1" long and holds 10 - 12 grains of powder. Case is made from 221, 222, 223 family of brass. There are several steps involved in making the brass but it isn't rocket science if I can do it!

In the 17 Shrew performance is in the 3,500 - 3,750 fps range with 20 grain bullets (almost mirrors the 17 AH) and absolutely NO recoil in my XP-100 rifle. Accuracy with my 11 twist Shilen barrel is very good.

I have often wondered how this cartridge would work as a 20 caliber. I can neck a couple of cases up to 20 caliber and send them to you if you like. Let me know and good luck if you decide to pursue this project.

There's your 10 to 12 grain case in rimless. a 1.2" case would have around the capacity of 15gr. to 16gr., I'd expect, about 1 grain less than a .17AckBee or .17PeeWee case's 17gr.

ray h
10-22-2012, 04:43 PM
As Michael said I did a 20 Gopher, case is 1.20 long, .269 neck and 40* shoulder. The normal powders like 1680, 4227, N120 were giving me in the 3200's. GW suggested LilGun, I'm not a fan of LG, but the thing came alive. 12.8 grs was giving me 3575 to 3600 fps with a 32gr VMax. I shot it on PD's one year. I'd like to try 300MP, 4100 and 410 in it but haven't. They should be good too.

Nor Cal Mikie
10-22-2012, 04:45 PM
I was just looking thru my stash and I've got a 20 VT Hornady full length die that could be shortened by .200. That would allow me to make a 20 VT short case from cut down .221 cases? I'd start at 1.200 and go from there. Not sure how it would work but if you run a .223 case into a full length or body die, you're at your starting point.
So the start of the 20 VT short would be a .221 case with the neck cut off, then formed in the full length (short) die.
Now I'am looking back to the time when my Father offered me a BIG 6' or 8' lathe. Just never had a place for it.
Now I need to send a note to a friend and see if he's into shortening a die for me.;)

ae35gunner
10-22-2012, 05:06 PM
20 Vt case measures 1.400". What about cutting one down to 1.200 or even 1.00? Less powder = less recoil? Seeing hits through the scope for sure.:)
Take the botom end off a full length die and you're ready to go? And run the reamer in "just far enough" to chamber the case?
I know, I sure think of some crazy stuff. But isn't this shooting thing just made for crazy ideas?;)

My current 20VT "go-to" load uses 17.7gr of H4198...so maybe less powder.
The 20VT already has virtually NO RECOIL, and I can already see all my hits.
The savings in money for less powder is likely negated by the machining costs, time spent case forming (I'd rather be shootin' than reloadin'), and possibly unseen problems while perfecting something that already exists in other cartridges, as has already been suggested here. Unless it's important at a personal level to be recognized for developing a "new widget", why not enjoy what has already been proven to work?? Whatever your choice, I wish you well and hope that you succeed at whatever that choice may be.:)

Nor Cal Mikie
10-22-2012, 08:10 PM
Got a friend that will modify the die for the cost of postage.:cool::D Should have it back before the end of the week.;)
It's not an "ego" think, it's more about trying something and seeing how it will turn out. May not be worth spit but I'll never know till I try.

I did build a "6.8 BR Wildcat", just to see how it would shoot. The hot ticket for the BR shooters is the 30 BR. I liked the 6.8 SPC and figured "Why not try the 6.8 BR"? Turns out to be a real shooter. Easy on brass, big selection of
.277 bullets to choose from and 5 shot groups that you can cover with a dime from the bench @ 100 yards. Sometimes you just have to try something and see for yourself.:D

ae35gunner
10-23-2012, 04:06 AM
Then go for it Mikie. I applaud your efforts and wish you success. Who knows. if it pans out for you I might be interested too!! I do love my 20VTs (all 4 of them) and as many of our brethren on this forum can attest, it is one of those cartridges with inherent efficiency and outstanding accuracy, both qualities so often sought but so infrequently achieved together in one cartridge.

foxhunter
10-23-2012, 04:39 AM
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v396/bobd/gun%20things/34593B43357Ffp33B3Dot3E23533D3783D9.jpg
it's been done, 20 vartag with the shoulder pushed back .25" 17 viper is on the left.

Nor Cal Mikie
10-23-2012, 02:43 PM
20 Viper?:cool: What powder and how much of a charge are you putting in that shortened case?

Chuck Miller
10-23-2012, 03:26 PM
Here's my 17 Spartan, basically a 17FB .200 short. Dies were made by shortening the Hornady 17FB FL die. I would say doing this is the cheapest way but not necessarily the best, really works the brass, custom dies would have been better. I'm loading 14.6grs with a 20gr'er. Pic shows the 17 Spartan, 17FB and a 17AH. The Spartan uses the 221FB parent, I believe Bobs Viper uses the M1 30cal parent case, they're about the same capacity. Mine is on a CZ 221FB donor, feeding is average, I wouldn't say it's effortless but it does work. They're fun to play with but at this level they're a bunch of ways to get the same performance easier and cheaper.....but hey, who want's to do that;) Probably easy to do the same thing in a 20 cal.

http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/medium/pics042810_002_Small_1.jpg

ab_bentley
10-23-2012, 03:59 PM
Also don't forget we have the 22 Reeds Express which is essentially a 1" 223 round. It can be necked to 20/17 and produce excellent velocities. Adam

foxhunter
10-23-2012, 09:02 PM
powder would be in the 14-15 grain range, n120, h4198, rl7 and the such. had the reamer and dies but went with the 17 viper instead, it's one of my favorite cartridges and is also built on a cz 527, cartridge is bases on the 221 fb.
i have been shooting the rifle cartridge combo for about 12 years now and it has killed everything i have pointed it at.

Nor Cal Mikie
10-29-2012, 10:29 PM
Got my modified die back. Looks like factory.:D
Best laid plans...:rolleyes:
Getting brass piling up around the base above the rim enough that it's hard to get the case out of the shell holder.
Trying different things without too much success. (so far);)
Tried running .221 brass through a 20 VT body die then cutting the length down close to 1.200. Seems better that way as far as forming but still piling brass up at the base. Die is smooth inside so that's not the problem.
Thinking of shortening a 20 VT body die and see if that helps.
Might be shoulder neck/forming and moving too much brass at one time?
Not sure if there's a different/better approach.:confused:

Iowa Fox
10-30-2012, 12:03 AM
25 years ago some of the guys around here were running a Mach 1V reamer in .25 short and calling it a Mach 111. They were all built using Sako actions and premium barrels. I was always amazed at the velocity and accuracy they could achieve with those little cases compared to my Mach 1V, they were right there with me. If I remember right they were using some fast lots of sweet shooting surplus Thunderbird powder to get those velocities. I have a hunch the 20 VT short could be a real performer also.

kenbro
10-30-2012, 01:40 PM
Mike,
I don't know what I'm talking about,but, Have you tried pushing the brass into the VT die with the guts removed? Or cut a tad off the bottom of a 221fb die and take the guts out of that before pushing the brass in.
Ken.

Nor Cal Mikie
10-30-2012, 02:14 PM
Ken: I'am working with a "shortened: 20 VT fill length die. It's not going as smooth as I had expected.I "think" I've got it figured out.
If I run a .223 case through a .221 Fireball body die, I end up with a "long necked" .221 Fireball case. Trim and expand the necks as needed.
So on that track of thinking, if I run a .221 Fireball case through a "shortened"
20 VT body die, I'll end up with a "long necked" VT short case. Expand and trim the neck as needed. That way I'll have the proper length and partial formed brass to work with. At least I've got 500+ pieces of .221 Fireball brass to work with.;)
And the fact that this is a "project", there's no rush and I'am learning in the process.
I've tried no guts in the dies but I'am still scraping brass down at the rim area.
That part had me wondering.:confused:
I think I'am trying to move too much brass at one time. Got a 20 VT body die packed up and ready to ship to get shortened. That should tell me if I'am on the right track.
One pass with .221 case in a 20 VT die gets good brass so, a "short" die should get me close enough to work with. I'll keep at it till I get it sorted out.

ab_bentley
10-30-2012, 02:23 PM
You need an intermediate die, like the the 221FB FL die. I used the 250SAV die, then the 221FB, and last the 20VT die for my short one (all had been shortend). Just running the 221FB case through the 20VT short die will either crush the case, wrinkle the case, or not form at all.

You need that 221FB FL die shortend to work this properly. Adam

foxhunter
10-30-2012, 03:07 PM
as you shorten the die the body taper may become a factor, thus the scrapping of the brass at the bottom. also you may need to bevel the die where the case goes into the die as it may be razor sharp and shave brass rather than form. measure a formed case and compare it to a non formed for size shift to see what the difference is.
just a few thoughts.

Ken: I'am working with a "shortened: 20 VT fill length die. It's not going as smooth as I had expected.I "think" I've got it figured out.
If I run a .223 case through a .221 Fireball body die, I end up with a "long necked" .221 Fireball case. Trim and expand the necks as needed.
So on that track of thinking, if I run a .221 Fireball case through a "shortened"
20 VT body die, I'll end up with a "long necked" VT short case. Expand and trim the neck as needed. That way I'll have the proper length and partial formed brass to work with. At least I've got 500+ pieces of .221 Fireball brass to work with.;)
And the fact that this is a "project", there's no rush and I'am learning in the process.
I've tried no guts in the dies but I'am still scraping brass down at the rim area.
That part had me wondering.:confused:
I think I'am trying to move too much brass at one time. Got a 20 VT body die packed up and ready to ship to get shortened. That should tell me if I'am on the right track.
One pass with .221 case in a 20 VT die gets good brass so, a "short" die should get me close enough to work with. I'll keep at it till I get it sorted out.

Nor Cal Mikie
10-30-2012, 04:55 PM
Good info Guys.:cool:
#1. The shortened 20 VT die will get more taper at the opening.
#2 The 20 VT body die will be shortened by .200" and a good taper.
#3. Full length (intermediate) .221 Fireball die will be shortened by .200" and a good taper added at the mouth.
Getting shipped as we speak.
Only .002 to .003 difference in the body measurements but the too sharp edge at the opening in the shortened full length 20 VT is causing a problem on the brass. (correcting on #1)

I do listen and THANK YOU. Nothing beats the 'been there, done that" for smoothing out the rough spots in the learning curve. And, you CAN teach old dogs new tricks!:D

drewh
10-30-2012, 07:50 PM
If I remember correctly, Winchester .222 brass is smaller than .223 by a little this also helps a little when forming shortened cases, found this out by making one batch out of .222 that worked fine, and making a second batch out of .223 and having to use a small base die because of bolt click.
Drew

ballpowder
11-02-2012, 04:18 PM
it sounds as though you have already started down a path but Savage made this rifle in the Model 40 I believe that past few years so a modern rifle with correct bolt face is out there, just get a bushing die for sizing. A friend and I were studying this case last nite. Has possibilities for sure...

kenbro
11-09-2012, 02:48 PM
Mike,
Today, just to see, I cut .388 off a 17 rem FL die. When I pushed a 19FB case into it, it shaved the case just as you described,so I conclued that the case was too fat for how far into the die it was expected to go.
I did have success when I shortened a .19/223 neck die so I could neck size fireaball length cases.
Please keep us informed if you make progress.
Thanks,Ken.
PS. Anybody know what screw size goes into the top of a K&M expand iron mandrel. Posted a mandrel off to Bill today and left my only screw in the top.

Nor Cal Mikie
11-09-2012, 04:55 PM
Ken:
I was running into the same problem with brass shaving at the base. Tried different dies and in different sequences.
Started off running a .221 Fireball thru a shortened fireball die with no guts. That got me a long necked .221 Fireball.
Then run that through my RCBS Power Case trimmer. That gets it down to the length I'am after. 1.200.
Then through a shortened 20 VT body die. That forms the shoulder and reduces the neck to 20. Then run a 20 mandrel theough the necks rather than a full length 20 VT.
The scraping was showing up just ahead of the extractor groove with the full length die and the base was getting distorted when you lowered the ram.
Trying to move too much brass at one time and the OD being too big for the die?
After doing a little research and getting ideas from a couple of guys here on the forum, I ordered up a Lee Bulge Buster and a .380 Carbide die. That should reduce the OD at the base and hopefully take care of the shaving problem. Should be here by the first of the week and I'll be getting back into the middle of making brass.
Already got about 12 cases made. What I did was chuck a case up in a drill and run them with a fine file just enough to remove the ridge. Works OK but I'am thinking the Bulge Buster will be a better way to go. I won't be giving up till I get it sorted out.:D
Even went to draging out my new neck turning gear. I'am getting it done and it's turning out to be not as bad as I first thought. You just have to do it a BUNCH to get the hang of it. And for the Guys like Adam that make brass and turn necks? My hats off to them for having the patience and perservence to get that job done.:cool:

Nor Cal Mikie
11-16-2012, 12:22 AM
Got the Lee Bulge Buster today. Never seen anything work so slick. One pass and the shaved portion on the case just above the rime area is as smooth as a baby's bottom.:cool:
Now I'll try sizing and using the Bulge Buster "before" I get to the shaving step. Saved a bunch of half formed cases be running them through the BB.:D


Finding out it's the shortened "full length" 20 VT die that's causing the shaving. Might need a hone job?:confused: The hole opening is cut to 45* at the edge but it's still shaving. Another pass with the BB and it's good to go.
Got brass but I'am think of a way to eleminate an extra step. Not too bad as is.