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Old 07-05-2009, 12:21 PM
bbrc bbrc is offline
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Default 222 rem improved

Hi
I notice one or two barrel manufacturers list 222 remington improved as a chambering option but I can't find any load data or information for it. Does anyone have any or know where I might get some.
thanks very much
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  #2  
Old 04-02-2011, 08:30 AM
Stephen Perry Stephen Perry is offline
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Default bbrc

Any cartridge labeled improved is a crap shoot. In the case of the .222 Rem what can be improved. Unless a cartridge designer has access to a flow bench like Pindell an Palmaisano had with Dan Pawlak for the PPC cartridge he/she is shootin at the moon and hope it hits. The most popular items on a designer seeking change over a parent cartridge are increasing shoulder angle and altering body taper. My question is if you make changes why not come up with a personalized name like Tom Gillman did back in the 60's when he named his 2 great cartridges the Tom Cats, 22 and 6. To me having shot, owned, competed, and hunted with a .222 there is no need to improve the cartridge. Want more powder capacity and similar performance move up to the .223. Guys like Tubbs with his XC cartridge competed while designing a cartridge in the mid range that not only competes well but functions well in the actions he used, we the shooting society are benefactors of a rifleman like Tubbs.

All in all my feeling is there enough cartridge designs out there. All one needs to do select a powder that has a range of nodes that will allow you to do load development with your chosen bullets and barrel twist.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
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  #3  
Old 04-02-2011, 02:21 PM
Ackman Ackman is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stephen Perry View Post
Any cartridge labeled improved is a crap shoot. In the case of the .222 Rem what can be improved. Unless a cartridge designer has access to a flow bench like Pindell an Palmaisano had with Dan Pawlak for the PPC cartridge he/she is shootin at the moon and hope it hits. The most popular items on a designer seeking change over a parent cartridge are increasing shoulder angle and altering body taper. My question is if you make changes why not come up with a personalized name like Tom Gillman did back in the 60's when he named his 2 great cartridges the Tom Cats, 22 and 6. To me having shot, owned, competed, and hunted with a .222 there is no need to improve the cartridge. Want more powder capacity and similar performance move up to the .223. Guys like Tubbs with his XC cartridge competed while designing a cartridge in the mid range that not only competes well but functions well in the actions he used, we the shooting society are benefactors of a rifleman like Tubbs.

All in all my feeling is there enough cartridge designs out there. All one needs to do select a powder that has a range of nodes that will allow you to do load development with your chosen bullets and barrel twist.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR
That doesn't answer the question you pompous windbag.
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  #4  
Old 04-02-2011, 03:32 PM
BRUCEK BRUCEK is offline
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Default .222 Improved 40 degree shoulder

My gunsmith has a .222 "Improved" reamer that has a 40 degree shoulder and a .242 neck. He used it as a benchrest cartridge in the early years before he moved to the 6x47. I had him build me one on an XP 100 in a very heavy barreled configuration for varminet hunting. It shoots 50 grain V Max bullets in the 3400 FPS range using 22 grains of Reloader 7, which would be way too much in the standard .222. It will shoot groups in the .2's all day and I had one group in the 0nes some years back. My recent testing of the new XBR 8208 powder in the TAC .20 and the Russian suggests that it will do well in this new case also.

I personally do not like the .223 cartridge nor the .222 Magnum. Developing a cartridge design on the .222 case makes sense if that is your personal choice. I just got a new reamer from PTG called the .20 DUSTER which I believe was designed by Dan C. Again, 40 degree shoulder longer neck and great brass is available. A tinkerer's dream. I believe with the right powder it will match my TAC .20 and my .20 Russian.

Just some thoughts...

Bruce
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  #5  
Old 04-02-2011, 05:36 PM
MIBULLETS MIBULLETS is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ackman View Post
That doesn't answer the question you pompous windbag.
At least his post was somewhat relevent to the subject of the thread. Can't say the same for this one.

Anyway, you could probably start with normal 222 Rem loads and work up from there. The same powders would apply since the capacity isn't increased too much unless the neck is shortened as well in the conversion. You might be able to get close to 223 Rem balistics.

I think I have read about many different wildcats built off the 222 Rem. Loading should be similar to those. I'll see if I can find any.

Last edited by MIBULLETS; 04-02-2011 at 05:42 PM.
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  #6  
Old 04-02-2011, 06:10 PM
Stephen Perry Stephen Perry is offline
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Default Bruce

Back in the day, 1950-80's benchrest in California, Arizona, Washington which are part of what the NBRSA calls the NW and SW Regions there were several benchrest shooters/gunsmiths that had reamers with different body tapers and shoulder angles cut to have their version of the .222 Rem. Since your from Stockton you might know Stu Harvey and Mel Iwatsubo. These are 2 smiths in California that had .222 and 6x47 customers that could chose from .222 reamers that had standard,30,35,40 deg shoulders same with the 6x47 Rem. Pat McMillan shot allot of benchrest back then with .222 and 222 1/2 barrels as well as shooters like George Kelbly who still competes with his in Unlimited Class with a Big Gun. Walt Berger competed in unlimited with a .222 probably a 35 deg shoulder. One thing here I'm not just blowing smoke here like another maroon keeps saying, I know these people as friends and competitors.

Shooters are generally good people though I feel since computer varmint/benchrest/hunting started and I've been at this now since 97 allot of grief and ignorance has been thrown around by jealous/envious people that live and die on these Forums. I try not to be one of those, I have a real job and a family.

Bruce what I would suggest for you is do a little reading outside Small Caliber on Varmint and Benchrest rifles and cartridges. I have books/magazines back to the turn of the 20th century from Mann/Pope to Sharpe/Brownell/Page/Ackley/Mace/Newick and magazines like Rifle and Handloader both starting at No.1. Add to that Precision Shooting, Shooting Times, and all the cousin magazines. I don't need the written word to get to the loading bench or the field but I enjoy a good book/magazine when I'm not making bullets jacketed/cast, loading ammo, or cleaning barrels.

But my collection of materials is not much different than that of most of the shooters I shoot with. I'm not a pompous blowhard like the Maroon said just a little guy like the rest of you guys. I like to help the little guys with information they might not have at their finger tips but am well aware I don't know have any reference especially in calibers from 20 caliber down. But my experince with .222, .223, 22 & 6 PPC, 6 BRS, 6x47 Rem., 22-250, and 6x47 Lapua is on the same road as others here, that's why they call this Small Caliber isnt it.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Last edited by Stephen Perry; 04-04-2011 at 02:43 AM.
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  #7  
Old 04-03-2011, 10:27 PM
PeterS PeterS is offline
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BBRC, I would suggest that the Ackley books may contain some improved handload data for the improved cartridges. The only quirk may be that the powders used then may be slightly different than what is available today. It will be an experiment and will require that you carefully observe signs of pressure and determine where you are at. I would think you will definitely want to use your chronograph as well.

Also, what was a 222 1/2 cartridge? I assume it was an improved .222 Rem, but in what way?

Thanks, Peter.
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Last edited by PeterS; 04-03-2011 at 10:34 PM.
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  #8  
Old 04-03-2011, 10:31 PM
MIBULLETS MIBULLETS is offline
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The 222 1/2 was a shortened 222 Rem Mag. Per formace was between the 222 and 222 mag. Somewhat popular in the early benchrest community.
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  #9  
Old 04-04-2011, 12:52 AM
rick w. rick w. is offline
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I kinda agree that a 222 improved could be about anything based on the standard 222 case. One might peruse the older Precision Shooting magazine pages, or perhaps the two benchrest books by Page or Newick for some historical information if so interested.

All in all, I would suspect that the barrel maker would have some information to share on the reamer aspect of his offerings. That way, one would see the dimensions etc, to see if it floated your boat or not.

Most of the 222 improveds are about a sharper shoulder and a bit more speed. I have two "222 Improveds" one is a tight neck, blown out, shoulder 45 degrees pushed forward quite a ways, short neck 222 case(22/45A.A.); that Berger and Adams were developing at the time. Almost identical in nature, I have the Adams version in a sleeved 40xbr HV benchgun. I shot small group with it one year at the old Crawfish International in Lafayette, La(0.092). My second is a 222 with a sharper shoulder(gunsmith(Bunch) altered shoulder), just a short stab with an "improved reamer of the day". I only received seating dies, as no need for a sizer die other than a reamed Wilson bushing type.

I am under the impression that the 222 1/2 was in at least a couple of versions. I have a Douglas #8 taper on a sleeved 722, that is the 90 thousandths short 222 magnum that some attribute to Ed Shilen. Oddly enough, I have never shot it; made brass; but traded horses sorta speak with the Adams version.

I have also shot the 22/45 Stolle version based on the full length 222 magnum brass with a 45 degree shoulder. I always felt that the full length 222mag version was the better for my needs on the line, had a sleeved 40xbr that had a tight fit of action etc. Always shot well, but as usual I was the weak link there.

I would counsel to get a drawing of what the chamber looks like, then go from there if the call is for you. I always liked the sharp shouldered cases, just one of my things in chamberings................a little more speed and not a lot of flow at sane loadings.

Rick W.
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  #10  
Old 04-05-2011, 12:00 PM
Dean2 Dean2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bbrc View Post
Hi
I notice one or two barrel manufacturers list 222 remington improved as a chambering option but I can't find any load data or information for it. Does anyone have any or know where I might get some.
thanks very much
Given the huge variation in the reamer specs for all improved type cartridges I would not be using someone else's data. In additon, even on factory spec rifles we all know there is large variations in the loads they like or will handle.

My suggestion is to start with 222 loads, work up carefully till you get pressure signs. With any improved cartridge, if you get to 200 or 300 FPS over published max for the factory cartridge, you are about max on the improved. Ackley's best improved designs, the 257 Roberts and the 30-30 gained about 2-300 FPS maximium. I doubt you will get that much of an improvement in speed out of a 222 improved. Best of luck.
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