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  #1  
Old 06-06-2018, 10:16 AM
NoZombies NoZombies is offline
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Default .22 ladybug

I haven't posted a lot over here, but this project that I've been working on certainly fits in here. I started the project in 2017, and posted my first results online January of 2018 in a private forum, and publicly in March of 2018. I don't claim this is an original idea, but I was unable to find any information of a contemporary effort when I started my work.

I've been messing with small capacity and small caliber wildcats for a while though not too much in the last few years. My most recent endeavor is the .22 ladybug. It's intended to answer the question; "Is there a direct CF reloadable replacement for the .22 LR?". While the ladybug requires a different chamber than the .22 LR (experiments for a cartridge that didn't require rechamber didn't go well) it is a very good analog for the .22 LR cartridge, performance will be discussed below.

According to the thin historical record I've been able to put together, it ends up being pretty similar to the cartridge Chas. Askins developed in the 30's (the .221 askins) though it's derived differently and has some dimensional and application differences.

Beside the LR cartridge:


I was explaining to my wife that many small caliber wildcats are named after bugs, like the hornet, bee, wasp etc. She said this one is more like a ladybug "It's cute, and it kills garden pests quietly". So the name stuck.

So far I have 2 rifles in the caliber, a 16.25" Contender (easiest conversion ever!) and a 24" H&A falling block. All accuracy and velocity testing has been through the contender.

Case capacity is fairly low at avg 4.0 grains water capacity. As a result, powder charges are low. I'm currently experimenting with titegroup powder, as it's very conducive to the small capacity and bore of the cartridge. 1.1 grains of TG is pushing a 40 grain cast bullet (BHN 12-13) tumble lubed with 45-45-10 to velocities of 940 FPS avg. (keeping it subsonic for suppressor use).

The first 10 shot (offhand) group at 25 yards with that load:


I've pushed the same bullet as high as 1600 FPS, but at those velocities, the accuracy was terrible and it loosened the primer pockets in the brass and stuck brass in the chamber. Loads up to about 1250 FPS remain accurate and show no pressure signs. This is intended as a .22lr replacement anyways, so keeping things below about 1250 doesn't give up anything on the desired goals of the cartridge.

I've also tested a light bullet through the gun... you know, for the recoil sensitive... at 20 grains, the same 1.1 grain TG load pushes it close to 1300 FPS, but maintains accuracy.




I started out making brass from .22 hornet brass through a fairly complex process and a number of operations on the lathe. I later realized that I could accomplish the same thing by using cheaper brass, I just couldn't have the length any longer than the original RF case. After several iterations, I arrived at the current version.

Now I form the ladybug from .25ACP brass. I deprime the brass first, then using a special base punch designed to support the primer pocket, I swage the body down in 2 steps from .278 to .247. I swage all the way to the rim, but the die taper and natural springback leaves the web a little oversized. I was originally leaving the .25 ACP rims in place, but I have since gone 100% to recutting the rim to match the rim of a .22LR shell with an extractor relief above the rim. At the same time, I clean up the web of the case above the rim to the finished diameter of .247.

The above photos show the earlier version which retained the .25 ACP rim diameter and lacked the new extractor relief.

Now the brass ends at .247 diameter straight, with a rim diameter of .272-.278 and thickness of .042 (+.000/-.003). The extractor relief is .228 (+/-.001) diameter. My chamber is .251 straight with a rim recess .309 in diameter. (that was to accommodate the original design using the .25 ACP rim) trim length is .625".

The first 10 cases I made have each been loaded at least 100 times, and the only one I've lost was because I dropped it in the grass and couldn't find it.

I've made up a bunch more brass since, and brass life seems excellent across the board when using loads that keep 40 grain bullets under about 1300 FPS.

At the moment I have a contender with a 16.25" barrel chambered for the cartridge, along with a H&A falling block. I have some other projects in the works as well.

At this point all of my chambers have been cut using chucking reamers with depth stops. I'm sure a real chamber reamer with proper pilot would make an improvement, but chamber casts have shown less than .001" runout and a good chamber finish, so I haven't rushed toward that yet.

I'm continuing to develop the cartridge, and having a lot of fun doing so.
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  #2  
Old 06-06-2018, 11:38 AM
M595NUT M595NUT is offline
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Wow. Excellent detailed write up and outstanding job on the cartridge. Thank you for sharing!
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  #3  
Old 06-06-2018, 11:47 AM
22_boomer 22_boomer is offline
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Lightbulb

That is really something. I love really small cartridges like this although, for me, it would have to be something I could buy -- not really good at making cool stuff like that anymore.
Love those little round nose bullets -- did you cast them or find a place that sells them?

In the 22lr spectrum you have created choice of how fast or slow you want your rounds to go and it seems to be accurate. Some people might say "Why Bother" but it's the project itself and being able to role your own that gives you the pleasure and the fact that after you've done the work it shoots good and lasts a long time. Nice project!

Last edited by 22_boomer; 06-06-2018 at 11:54 AM.
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Old 06-06-2018, 12:53 PM
squirrel_slayer squirrel_slayer is offline
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bravo. very neat indeed! I know it's beyond the scope of the project but have you considered trying a "stinger" load lol like a case full of lil gun with a small rifle magnum primer? would be an interesting test.
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Old 06-06-2018, 02:04 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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Cool project for a retired fella. Thanks.
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  #6  
Old 06-06-2018, 03:30 PM
ramos ramos is offline
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Awesome! I've done a lot of different things to cases using hand tools, power tools, a lathe and a mill. I have not, however, turned a web or a rim. I fully appreciate the time you have invested in your brass! Thanks for sharing, especially the pictures.
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  #7  
Old 06-06-2018, 04:50 PM
The Old Redneck The Old Redneck is offline
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Default Good job

Nice work, I like it but I am too lazy to do more than just neck the 25 cap case to 22 or smaller. I can totally understand what and why you are doing it.
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  #8  
Old 06-06-2018, 05:46 PM
NoZombies NoZombies is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by M595NUT View Post
Wow. Excellent detailed write up and outstanding job on the cartridge. Thank you for sharing!
Thank you, I've really enjoyed the process!

Quote:
Originally Posted by 22_boomer View Post
That is really something. I love really small cartridges like this although, for me, it would have to be something I could buy -- not really good at making cool stuff like that anymore.
Love those little round nose bullets -- did you cast them or find a place that sells them?

In the 22lr spectrum you have created choice of how fast or slow you want your rounds to go and it seems to be accurate. Some people might say "Why Bother" but it's the project itself and being able to role your own that gives you the pleasure and the fact that after you've done the work it shoots good and lasts a long time. Nice project!
The little RN bullets come from a single cavity mold, and at 20 grains a piece, they drain the pot really slowly

I think we all sometimes take on projects simply to see the outcome. This was one of those projects for me.

Quote:
Originally Posted by squirrel_slayer View Post
bravo. very neat indeed! I know it's beyond the scope of the project but have you considered trying a "stinger" load lol like a case full of lil gun with a small rifle magnum primer? would be an interesting test.
I haven't tried lil'gun yet, but working up a higher end load that maintains accuracy is on my to-do list. I've been able to get the velocity, but so far accuracy has suffered above about 1400 FPS. I've pushed a 33 grain bullet about 2K, but it was something like a 6" group at 25 yards... I'll get back to higher power loads at some point.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Daryl View Post
Cool project for a retired fella. Thanks.
Yeah, I would probably make more progress on it more quickly if I was retired!

Quote:
Originally Posted by ramos View Post
Awesome! I've done a lot of different things to cases using hand tools, power tools, a lathe and a mill. I have not, however, turned a web or a rim. I fully appreciate the time you have invested in your brass! Thanks for sharing, especially the pictures.
Yeah, it's what has kept me from building a repeater, I don't want to lose the brass!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by The Old Redneck View Post
Nice work, I like it but I am too lazy to do more than just neck the 25 cap case to 22 or smaller. I can totally understand what and why you are doing it.
Indeed, I wish I could say there was a good reason, but sometimes "I want to" will have to suffice. I'm not sure if I ever would have done it if it hadn't been for the nudge you gave me years ago on another project, so Thank you!
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  #9  
Old 06-06-2018, 07:54 PM
rickiesrevenge rickiesrevenge is offline
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That's a neat project!

Aaron
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  #10  
Old 06-07-2018, 12:02 PM
flyswatter flyswatter is offline
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Nice read. Should be a jackrabbit's nightmare!
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