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  #81  
Old 03-27-2014, 10:58 PM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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Default 20 Extreme

What is your case/caliber ? How close to the VT is it ? Is your case based on the 221 FB, but with reformed LC brass ? Bill K
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  #82  
Old 03-27-2014, 11:55 PM
20 EXTREME 20 EXTREME is offline
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Default 20 extreme

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Originally Posted by Bill K View Post
What is your case/caliber ? How close to the VT is it ? Is your case based on the 221 FB, but with reformed LC brass ? Bill K
I am sirprized that you no nothing of the 20 EXTREME. I have been posting informatioin for quite some time. It is based on the 222 case trimmed to 1.575" and formed to new case dimensions by folding the neck to 30 degrees while sizing down to 20 caliber. It holds about 1 1/2 grains more than the 20 Var Targ and about 2 grains less than the VTTurbo. I can form brass from 223 but there is no advantage over Winchester 222 brass which is just the right size and takes just as much pressure..

I hear a lot about a 40 degree shoulder extending cse life. Here is a link to apost that I did about No Fireforming-Low pressure = Long case life. How about Zero case stretch from new to three firings.
http://www.saubier.com/forum/showthread.php?t=22058

Check out my other posts.
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  #83  
Old 03-28-2014, 12:27 AM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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Default 20 VarTarg

I remember reading prior post's, but saw it was slightly less than Kindler's 20 VVT, so just bypassed it. Should have read more, I guess. I would like to mention that the figures you mention as to pressure numbers, are based on good pressure testing/recording equipment, right ? Also I did some measuring and thus far my 221 rem FB case's and others that I have formed with LC brass also measure right at .373 before and after firing, like yours, some of mine have been fired five times, so far.
I feel I can and will boost somewhat my 3850 fps (in my chrony) when I get some good Nosler 221 brass. But even if I don't, I still will go with the accuracy first, fps second and safety always first. I am consistently getting 1/2 inch with z-max, v-max, Varmaggedon and even the 34 grain Midsouth
hp/s. So I am happy with my 20 SCC, the standard 20VT and a 204 R, just as you are with your 20Extreme. That is what matters. And actually the little critters I shoot, can not tell the difference in 100 fps or so, regardless. Bill K
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  #84  
Old 03-28-2014, 01:26 AM
20 EXTREME 20 EXTREME is offline
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Originally Posted by Bill K View Post
I remember reading prior post's, but saw it was slightly less than Kindler's 20 VVT, so just bypassed it. Should have read more, I guess. I would like to mention that the figures you mention as to pressure numbers, are based on good pressure testing/recording equipment, right ? Also I did some measuring and thus far my 221 rem FB case's and others that I have formed with LC brass also measure right at .373 before and after firing, like yours, some of mine have been fired five times, so far.
I feel I can and will boost somewhat my 3850 fps (in my chrony) when I get some good Nosler 221 brass. But even if I don't, I still will go with the accuracy first, fps second and safety always first. I am consistently getting 1/2 inch with z-max, v-max, Varmaggedon and even the 34 grain Midsouth
hp/s. So I am happy with my 20 SCC, the standard 20VT and a 204 R, just as you are with your 20Extreme. That is what matters. And actually the little critters I shoot, can not tell the difference in 100 fps or so, regardless. Bill K
The pressures I quoted are from Western powders load data so I am assuming that they have good testing/recording equipment. http://http://blog.westernpowders.co...eloading-data/

The measurements I took at 0.3732" were past the 0.200 datum, which is ahead of the web, as the anvil on my micrometer is 0.25". If you are taking measurements on the web, just ahead of the extractor groove then the measurements are not the same.

Safety is my first concern as well so I test all of my loads at least 1/2 grain over the one I select for general use. I actually back the 32 grain bullets off from a safe 4200 to about 4050 where the ES and SD are low and safe and accurate in all rifles. H 4198 at 20.3 grains leaves room in the case and the extra 150 fps I get with 20.8 grains is neither here nor there. Howver it is a lot more explosive on gophers than 3850 that you are stretching your primer pockets on. Good luck with the "good" Nosler brass.
[IMG][/IMG]
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  #85  
Old 03-28-2014, 04:39 PM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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Default 20 VarTarg

I am not even going to start a pissing match over this, but I am measuring at the same location you are, by your photo's, etc. And so far my primer pockets are staying just as tight as when I first loaded the case's. So I am satisfied with my results, especially the accuracy, which is what I am mainly after, The varmints I hunt are just as dead, then case life, then fps. So for now I wait for the "good" Nosler brass, then down the road some Lapua. Bill K
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  #86  
Old 03-29-2014, 08:10 PM
bowfisher bowfisher is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 20 EXTREME View Post
The pressures I quoted are from Western powders load data so I am assuming that they have good testing/recording equipment. http://http://blog.westernpowders.co...eloading-data/

The measurements I took at 0.3732" were past the 0.200 datum, which is ahead of the web, as the anvil on my micrometer is 0.25". If you are taking measurements on the web, just ahead of the extractor groove then the measurements are not the same.

Safety is my first concern as well so I test all of my loads at least 1/2 grain over the one I select for general use. I actually back the 32 grain bullets off from a safe 4200 to about 4050 where the ES and SD are low and safe and accurate in all rifles. H 4198 at 20.3 grains leaves room in the case and the extra 150 fps I get with 20.8 grains is neither here nor there. Howver it is a lot more explosive on gophers than 3850 that you are stretching your primer pockets on. Good luck with the "good" Nosler brass.
[IMG][/IMG]

My my !! Somebody urinate in your Wheaties this morning?? Why is it that you vehemently tear down anybody's chambering ideas and preferences if it isn't a 20 Extreme? Ever hear of live and let live? Different strokes for different folks? Blondes and brunettes?

Here's a few points for you to consider before your next rant, forgive me if I'm not the gentleman Bill K is ....

1. YOU don't have any pressure testing equipment. To use the 20VT numbers isn't correct, from what I've been told by the folks that have chambered the 20SCC, it holds approximately 1-2 grs more than a 20VT. Just like your 20Extreme....so extrapolating 20VT data and applying it here is apples and oranges.

Shoulder angle matters, taper matters, shoulder shape matters. For example, I have both a 17FB and a 17/23 SMc, which is formed from 17FB brass. They may share the same parent brass, but with even marginally more capacity and a different shoulder shape, they are not even in the same ballpark , performance wise, using the exact same powder. Exterminator, in this case.....250fps more with the 25gr Vmax , is the difference between the two rifles I was testing side by side. AND the 17FB had 2" more barrel than my 17/23SMc.

If you're into picking pepper out of fly crap, be genuine enough to at least use a small tweezers... you're incorrectly measuring with a micrometer and cutting with a chainsaw.

2. I don't know what you have against Nosler brass, I haven't used my 204R brass in my 17/204 enough to make a determination yet, but to arbitrarily bad-mouth a product without rigorous testing, is a little classless to say the least.

3. You know what, you just made up my mind for me. I have always thought the 222 case is a very nice neck down candidate, a tad more efficient that the 20-223 family of cases..( I own a few 20P's and 20 Tac's)....I have a 17-222 that shoots bugholes, was thinking about a 20-222 of some sort for 32 gr bullets and efficient loads, maybe even a 20 Extreme, but now I'm gonna chamber a 20SCC.

AND I'm gonna buy Nosler brass for it.

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  #87  
Old 03-30-2014, 07:53 PM
20 EXTREME 20 EXTREME is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bowfisher View Post
My my !! Somebody urinate in your Wheaties this morning?? Why is it that you vehemently tear down anybody's chambering ideas and preferences if it isn't a 20 Extreme? Ever hear of live and let live? Different strokes for different folks? Blondes and brunettes?

Here's a few points for you to consider before your next rant, forgive me if I'm not the gentleman Bill K is ....And you are accusing me of going on a rant. This thread was about the 20 VT which is a fine cartridge and I have never tore it down. I have however commented that it is too small to take full advantage of H4198 and have commented that AA 2200 would likely be a better choice, especially for the 40 grain bullets, but always suspected that 3400 fps was more realistic. Western powders data has confirmed my suspicions with 18.7 gr AA 2200 as max. getting 3398 @ 60,942 PSI

1. YOU don't have any pressure testing equipment.I don't have any pressure testing equipment but do use Case expansion tequniques, outlined by Speer and Hornady, to check for pressures. When I get no expansion at the 0.200" datum It is quite certain I am not getting over 55,000 PSI. To use the 20VT numbers isn't correct, from what I've been told by the folks that have chambered the 20SCC, it holds approximately 1-2 grs more than a 20VT. I don't know what you have been putting on your Wheaties but this is what CRT has to say, CRT wrote: During my last test session I was able to get 19 grains of H4198, that came up to the neck shoulder junction.
I made a 20 VT case out of a 17 FB case, which is just under the capacity of a 221 FB case fireformed 20 VT. Like others on SSC I found that it held 18.5 grains of H 4198 to the neck shoulder junction. That is only 0.5 grains more than the 20 VT and CRT notes that the Remington brass holds more than the Nosler brass.
Just like your 20Extreme The 20 EXTREME holds 21.5 grains of H 4198 so the 20 SCC is not in the same ballpark or evenin the same league.....so extrapolating 20VT data and applying it here is apples and oranges. Now that I know that you know the meaning of extrapolation perhaps it is time for a lesson. MountDoug's 20 VT load is 18.7 grains of H4198 which gets him 3780 fps, or 202f/s/grain, with the 32 grain bullet. That is a nice, low pressure, 100% load that shoots bugholes. Ramos, on SSC, reports near 3800 fps with 18.7 grains of H 4198 which is very similar to Doug's load. So take the 20 SCC with 19 grains H 4198 and 202 f/s/grain and you get 3838 fps. CRT was surprized when he posted this but I was not as experience tells me that theNosler Varmageddon delivers less pressure than the V-max and BT bullets.
"Re: 20 SCC cartridge (For real this time)
by CRT » Sat Feb 22, 2014 5:41 pm
I ran 19 grains of H4198 thru the rifle today and it was producing 3,810 fps in my rifle with a 32 grain Nosler Varmageddon bullet. That particular bullet does have more bearing surface so you might get a little more speed out of the Hornady , Sierra, and or Nosler boattail 32 grain. As I found in prior testing H4198 is just a little too slow for obtaining maximum efficiency from the 20 SCC. Although it does provide a solid speed increase over the 20 VT.

As the 20 EXTREME runs 20.3-20.8 grains of H 4198 at 95-97% load density it puts out slight less pressure/velocity with the 32 grain bullet. So at 199f/s/grain 20.3 grains of H 4198 gives me 4039 fps. Going to 20.6 grains would give a little more pressure so at 200f/s/gr I am at 41.20. Going to 20.8 grains puts me at virtually the same pressure as Doug's load, 202 f/s/grain, and gets me 4202f/s. If you look at the pressure ladder that i posted you willo see how close I can come with extrapolation.]



Shoulder angle matters, taper matters, shoulder shape matters. For example, I have both a 17FB and a 17/23 SMc, which is formed from 17FB brass. They may share the same parent brass, but with even marginally more capacity and a different shoulder shape, they are not even in the same ballpark , performance wise, using the exact same powder. Exterminator, in this case.....250fps more with the 25gr Vmax , is the difference between the two rifles I was testing side by side. AND the 17FB had 2" more barrel than my 17/23SMc.

If you're into picking pepper out of fly crap, be genuine enough to at least use a small tweezers... you're incorrectly measuring with a micrometer and cutting with a chainsaw. I am not into picking fly shit out of pepper but you would be at it a long time handicapped by boxing gloves. I am using the 0.250" (1/4") anvil to measure the 0.200" datum, which is 0.200" ahead of the boltface. For your information this is ahead of the web and there is a pressure ring, at that point on new brass, which is usually0.0005" to 0.0015" larger than the web just ahead of the extractor groove. Further if Bill is measuring newly fireformed brass instead of new 221 FB brass at the web then he the web could have already been stretched by 0.0005" or more. However judging by what he has posted regarding his 20 SCC I don't think that is the case and his loads have been relativly mild. I am not going to give you any more measuring lessons than that.

2. I don't know what you have against Nosler brass, I haven't used my 204R brass in my 17/204 enough to make a determination yet, but to arbitrarily bad-mouth a product without rigorous testing, is a little classless to say the least.
I really didn't bad mouth Nosler brass. I have used it in the 204 Ruger and the 6.5 Norma and found it to be thicker and a bit softer than Winchester and Lapua brass. As well it is uaually trimmed 0.010" under trim length giving some people the impression that it is not stretching as much as other brass. It gave good accuracy but no less primer pocket stretch than other brass.

3. You know what, you just made up my mind for me. I have always thought the 222 case is a very nice neck down candidate, a tad more efficient that the 20-223 family of cases..( I own a few 20P's and 20 Tac's)....I have a 17-222 that shoots bugholes, was thinking about a 20-222 of some sort for 32 gr bullets and efficient loads, maybe even a 20 Extreme, but now I'm gonna chamber a 20SCC.

AND I'm gonna buy Nosler brass for it.

I am glad that I was able to help you make up your mind. It is always good to learn by the school of hard knocks but hopefully other will pay attention to the facts. I know that CRT did a good job of making you and others, especially those that followed him to his SCC sight, think I am an idiot. Like the Pied Piper he is still stringing you all along.

Last edited by 20 EXTREME; 03-30-2014 at 08:04 PM.
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  #88  
Old 04-01-2014, 03:31 PM
bowfisher bowfisher is offline
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1. YOU don't have any pressure testing equipment. Still. Seems it's OK for YOU to determine pressures on your 20 EXTREME, by case stretch and primer evaluation but when someone does it on their case, they're being " unsafe". OK, now we've established that YOU are the only competent hand loader on this site. ( or sight, in Canada...)

2. The guys that have this chambering are getting the best performance out of AA2200, not H4198. They are shooting 32gr bullets, which is a good fit for this size case, IMO. The intent was to gain some performance over the VT and have a case that could be just neck-sized for multiple firings.

I didn't see where anyone challenged you and claimed that they could shoot a 40gr bullet faster than your beloved 20EXTREME. A 222 based case should have a size-able edge there..

3. Thanks for the measuring lesson. I had NO IDEA that the .200 datum line was ahead of the extractor groove !! That changes EVERYTHING! You better PM Bill K also and let him know that he's supposed to measure his case BEFORE and after he fires them to check for expansion. He's a little slow so I'm sure this fundamental process is beyond his grasp.

All joking aside, I do believe you can get a decent feel for pressures by measuring the .200 line. Point being, this isn't absolute between cases, different shaped cases act differently. Shoulder angle, shoulder shape, lenght-width ratio, rate of powder used, are just some of the variables that come to mind, and all become a factor.

4. Yes you did badmouth Nosler brass. But by the same token, getting over 4200fps with less than 21 grs of powder is QUITE the achievement !! I will give you that! Maybe Win brass IS better....I better look into it.

5. I don't know if there was a lovers spat gone wrong or what, but you sure have a crush on some folks. I'm past the grade school age propensities of taking sides, I'll call them as I see them, thank you very much. Nobody is perfect and sometimes people just can't get along, heck I'm best taken in small doses, I understand that, but this vitriol and thinly based hatred for specific folks and for any 20 cal case that isn't the 20EXTREME is tiresome.

I don't remember anyone on this site ( or sight, in Canada) calling you an idiot, but maybe a good look in the mirror would be applicable at this juncture. " Best check yoself , fore you wreck yourself", as they say in the hood.

Have a nice day.
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  #89  
Old 04-01-2014, 03:38 PM
Bill K Bill K is offline
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Default 20 VarTarg

Love it, Bowfisher... By the way a check with Western shows they appearantly have not pressure checked a 20 SCC, not even sure if they heard of it yet.. I am happy, know you and others are also. So will let a sleeping dog lay at rest, from now on. We each have our own opinions, likes and dislikes in this life.. Stay safe, well and sane. Bill K
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  #90  
Old 04-01-2014, 06:35 PM
JINGWEED JINGWEED is offline
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Default Well said

Well said Bowfisher. I couldn't agree more. I could say a lot more but you have made very valid points. I got as well as others, some will never get it.
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