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  #31  
Old 10-26-2014, 12:53 AM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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I rechambered my first CZ .22 Hornet barrel to .22 AckIMp Hornet using my .17AH reamer and put it on a BSA thin-side Martini Cadet action.

I found exactly the same thing, Doug with the increased pressure in the sharply necked case, except I ended up loading 11.5gr. LG and getting 3,000fps even with 40gr. Vmax bullets and 1/2" to 3/4" groups. That particular loading dispatches bunnies at 150yards like a laser, which is the current owner's intent for that rifle.


The barrel and action are browned, not blued or blacked. We felt it complimented the stained maple stock.
That/s a very old Basch(s) and Lombe(s) 6-24X- beautiful optics.
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Last edited by Daryl; 10-26-2014 at 12:57 AM.
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  #32  
Old 10-26-2014, 01:08 AM
Tilleyman Tilleyman is offline
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Some very nice shooting there Doug

Hmmm... thanks for the background, it does seem counter-intuitive but makes sense when you think about it. The energy required to blow those walls out is then redirected once the case is fireformed.

I guess I am a bit nervous about Lil Gun... it was unobtainable in Australia until very recently and even now is difficult to find. US shooters have had a lot more time to get familiar with its quirks...

How have you found its temperature sensitivity?
Australian conditions tend to have wide extremes of temperature... which is one of the reasons ADI powders have such good thermostability.
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  #33  
Old 10-26-2014, 02:21 AM
bridgeport bridgeport is offline
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Lil'gun can be a little spiky, yet it delivers excellent results for me in both .22 hornet, and .221 fireball. Lil'gun does seem a bit dirty in the loading hopper, kind of like unique in that respect.
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  #34  
Old 10-26-2014, 02:40 PM
steve b. steve b. is offline
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howdy all,

I have been shooting Lil Gun in my hornet for a number of years, and it does continue to deliver the best accuracy in my hornets. Still, this post is interesting and I will spot check my loads over the chrony next spring.

I shot about 1200 rounds of Hornet last year with most of the misses clearly due to me pulling the trigger with the rifle pointed in the wrong spot!

s.
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  #35  
Old 10-26-2014, 08:43 PM
montdoug montdoug is offline
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First.
Daryl that is one Really fine Martini!!! I sure wish I'd a stashed a bundle of them away for later back when I was a kid and you could buy em for next to nothing. "To soon old, to late wise" . I love the color match as you pointed out!!

On the Lil'Gun "History" deal.
I remember when I first started using it right when the new 5th edition Hornady manual came out on January 1st, in the year of our Lord 2000 . First time I'd actually seen data on Lil'Gun in a .22 Hornet. I had read a 2 part article on the .22 Hornet by Ross Seyfried, 1/2 the article one month in "Rifle" magazine and the 2nd 1/2 in "Handloader" magazine the next month. That was the best write up of the Hornet I've ever read and the first time I'd heard of Lil'Gun used the Hornet. Prior to that it was IMR4227 or WW 296 as I understand it. I owned an Anschutz 1730 Meister Grade .22 Hornet shortly after that .
At the time of the Hornady manual release it showed a max load of Lil'Gun with a 40 grain bullet in a Hornet as 13.7 grains in a Winchester case for 2,900FPS, (they have since dropped that max load to 13.2 grains). I bought several lbs of Lil'Gun at that time and a lot more since.
The weirdness reared it's ugly head right off the bat! First, I could barely fit 13.7 grains of Lil'Gun in a WW case if I used a 10 inch drop tube. Second and most striking was that because my Anschutz had shown a definite accuracy preference for WW cases that was all I used and as I started working up my 40 grain load it got faster and more accurate right up to about 13.2 to 13.3 grains (WAY GOOD!) and at that point it entered the "Twilight Zone". Accuracy went to heck, velocity swings of up to 100ish FPS, standard deviations were all over the map and the velocity actually started to "drop", really! I too made the mistake of leaving it in a Redding Competition BR30 measure's plastic powder hopper and after a few days when I took it out the whole inside of the hopper was orange peeled, little dimples? As to the range work I was shooting those 40's with 13.2 to 13.4ish grains in a WW case and WSR primer at 3,000ish to close to 3,100ish FPS and absolute bug holes. That's Way faster with less powder than made any sense???
I called Hodgdon and talked to the head tech to answer some questions and he explained Lil'Gun to me, not sure I buy everything as stated but it was a most informative call. He stated what most know already that Lil'Gun was first designed as a .410 shotgun and magnum pistol powder that just happened to hit a perfect slot for "most" .22 Hornets. It made those dimples because of the extremely high Nitro content and and he felt the velocity drop was that due to the nitro, when it compressed it made it basically hard to get lit. He also told me (and this is what made me doubtful) that you can not get enough Lil'Gun powder in a Hornet case under a 40 grain bullet to cause dangerous pressure, HUH??? Not sure i buy that but that's what he said.
On to the shouldered case issue, I do know that the following year Hornady's manual showed Lil'Gun in the .22 K-Hornet with a max 40 grain charge of 13.5 grains in a WW case for 3,100 FPS . 13.2 grains of the lot I had at the time with a 40 grain V-Max and WSR primer (not crimped as my gun didn't care for that) would blow the primer plumb loose to falling out and smear the case head to the point of being difficult to read at over 3,400ishFPS. So much for the old "load data is written by lawyers and it's always way low" theory, my .22 K load uses 12.3 grains with a 40 V-Max for 3,250ish FPS.
Bottom line for me is that loaded very carefully in the .22 Hornet and .22 K-Hornet with 40 grain V-Max's it has never made temp excursions on me or done anything but shoot like a house-a-fire. The Anschutz Hornet load I use runs right at 3,000ish FPS and the current CZ K-Hornet is in the 3,250ish FPS area, both are keepers.
Now ya know everything I know about Lil'Gun and it'll never be used in anything but those two rounds in my world even though it apparently works well for others in different cartridges, much as I like it in the Hornets it's still goofy IMO and it still makes me cautious in it's use.

Once again, Sorry about the length!
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Last edited by montdoug; 10-26-2014 at 08:48 PM.
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  #36  
Old 10-26-2014, 08:45 PM
glennlasher glennlasher is offline
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I ran into a feller at the range one day, and he was having fits with his Savage 40. It seems he blew a case and couldn't get the bolt open. When I asked about the load, he said "13.0 gr. of Lil Gun and the 40 VMax, with Winchester cases and primers, which by all accounts should be nice and relatively mild.
I'd tried Lil Gun in my .221 Fireball and had some primer piercing, so I quit it cold.

A couple of years later, when I got hold of the Hornet, I decided to just use 1680 and call it good. I've not tried Lil Gun in my Hornet and don't intend to do so. (BTW, my Fireball doesn't like 1680, either, so I'm using Re-7 in it).
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  #37  
Old 10-26-2014, 09:57 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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In what I consider a WEAK Hornet, the single lug Savage 340, we found a load of 11.0gr. gave 2,900fps and low pressures, no problems.

I feel the loads Hodgdon has listed, even though they show low pressures, develop much higher pressures than that and are suitable for modern actions only. I know for a fact, they work perfectly in Ruger #1's, Ruger 77/.22Hornets and TC Contenders and TC Encores along with CZ 527's of course.

In RP brass I have used up to 14.4gr.- thousands of them with several different 40gr. bullets- NEVER a problem shooting in the heat or cold. I always crimp using a Lee crimp die- the alone reduced my SD's to the teens.

In WW brass I shot up to 13.5gr. with 40gr. bullets - several makes - NP - EVER, but - WW brass is 100fps slower than RP brass, both with what I consider maximum loads - oh well, what's 100fps? The WW brass still makes almost 3,200fps.

I lack experience of many here, but with well over 8,000 rounds of Hornet behind me, all loaded with LG and bullets from 35gr. to 50gr., I do have some experience with it - all good- except for it's plastic hopper dissolving nature.

The last couple years, I reduced my loads in RP brass (nickel) to 14.0gr. and in WW brass to 13.0gr. only because they were easier to handle when loading due to having more room inside the case. Too, the 3,200fps + a bit was more than enough for the closer gopher ranges were were experiencing at the farms we shoot- furthest being 320yards.

I should note, I ALWAYS seated the bullets out as far as possible, then crimped them. With the magazine's plastic insert ground back (parallel grind)to a point on the bottom of the slanted part, my loads would barely comfortably fit one in the magazine with one in the chamber when using Nosler or Vmax bullets. The Barnes Varminators fit up to 3 just fine, but that magazine went South and I converted that rifle to single shot with a pine block in the mag. well. I extended my second 527's magazine, but usually shot it as a single shot or a 3-shot when coyote hunting.
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  #38  
Old 10-27-2014, 12:18 AM
maxscm maxscm is offline
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My memory is terrible.
And With that said.
Many years ago I had pressure issues with Tarus 218 Bee Silouhette 12" Pistol and a Martini 218 Bee Rifle. I call Hogdgon and they said they're were issues with some lots of LilGun and for me to return the powder to them and Hogdgon would replace it with new Lilgun Powder . They Did. I changed to another powder. Sold the New LilGun Powder. Never tried it again.
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  #39  
Old 10-27-2014, 12:53 AM
Daryl Daryl is offline
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There was one lot number, well advertized by them, that did produce high pressures. I'm surprised their site still doesn't show it, if indeed it now longer does.
As far as I know, that lot # never showed North of the 49th - thankfully - as I've used MANY pounds of the stuff - maybe a dozen, probably more - never buying more than 2 pounds at a time & over so many years, had to be different lots. I've been using it in the .17AH, .218Bee and .22 Hornet since about 2002 - almost 13 years. pretty sure it was that year I started with it in the CZ Hornet and the Ruger #1- then CZ .17AH in about 2008/2009.
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Last edited by Daryl; 10-27-2014 at 12:55 AM.
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  #40  
Old 10-27-2014, 04:46 AM
Kevin Gullette Kevin Gullette is offline
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Question I'm wondering.........

........if, even though LilGun works mostly well in 22 caliber applications, it's oddities seem to arise when used in subcaliber(20 and 17 cal.) cartridges.

Perhaps the reduced sectional density bullets are factors in the extreme pressure, and velocity, variations.

Anyone know of any testing along these lines of thought?

Kevin
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