fireforming tomorrow

[larryinIA]

I don't know that I would go .3 gr spread, especially as you move up to the top. There is a huge difference in loads in this small of a case. In mine, from .3 change in charge, you can go from no pressure signs, to leaking primers, and/or primers stuck to the face of the bolt. They are using loads that are .7 behind what some others are using. Be careful.

Larry

[Ackman]

To Harpo.....About "crush". Crush is what you feel when closing the bolt on a new case that's to be formed in an AI chamber. It's tight contact between the neck/shoulder junction of case and chamber. It's what holds the casehead tight against the bolt and seals the chamber at that point. One of my 17AH's is a Contender carbine. A rimmed case in a break open action still needs some crush. With the T/C it's fussier.....you need to set initial headspace where there's enough crush to do the job, but not too much pressure to where the gun won't lock up properly. Just takes a little more care to get it right is all, not real difficult.


Regarding this.....

Originally Posted by Stephen Perry

1) Harpo is learning at his own pace, you did too.

2) Your comnment to me about wasting time and two fire-formings not being necessary is unfriendly and
3) shows your lack of headspacing knowledge and case forming.

4) An AI case is no different in fire forming to make than a 6x47 Lapua cases made off .243 brass or a 6 PPC case made off 220 Russian brass.

5) Besides that Harpo have a good day at the Range, your going in the right direction and not wasting time, and you are getting the fire-forming process done at your pace, ask more questions if you feel the need.

6) After fire-forming your cases you will have cases that are matched to the chamber, especially in forming the shoulder.

7) Fire-form to form the shoulder,
8) don't rely on crushing the shoulder by closing the bolt to make things fit,
9) do things right in fire-forming and your cases will last longer and have the precision fit that your smith provided you when he chambered your barrel and set the headspace.

10) The ladder system of loading several cases and bullets at one powder level and seating depth and evaluating is common amongst reloaders. Harpo keep going up and down the scale of loads as this is a good practical method of load development. The old saying, change one variable of loading components at a time is relevant even to this day.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

Ok Stevie........

1) Harpo is frustrating himself unncecessarily. Most of his postings have been about this gun. Maybe he enjoys beating his head against the wall, you never know.

3) This isn't complicated. In my reloading room there's somewhere between 9,000 and 10,000 formed AI (including MIV, and a couple other wildcat) cases. Each formed perfectly with one firing, and I don't remember losing even one to a split neck. And it's not a big deal, anyone can this stuff. But I'm all ears, tell me how I'm doing it wrong and explain what "headspacing knowledge and case forming" I'm missing.

4) This is about 17AH. Do you shoot one? Do you even shoot Ackleys?

5) So that's what "having a good day at the range" is about?.....wasting time and losing cases? Maybe Harpo would enjoy this a lot more if things worked right. Listening to you won't get him there.

6) Duhhhh....

7) More duhhh.......

8) Fireforming headspace is set with crush. You really don't know about this stuff do you?

9) How profound. "Precision fit" doesn't include rounded shoulders and split necks. And thing is.....initial headspace on a 17AH is set by the reloader when making that false shoulder.

10) You're confused. The ladder system has nothing to do with fireforming.

And finally......
2) I commented to Harpo (not you) that he was wasting time, and he is. My comment that two formings are unnecessary is "unfriendly?" Poor guy. I've read your postings on one of a couple other boards you were kicked off of......it was all long winded blather. And they were far more "unfriendly" that me saying that two formings aren't necessary. Your feelings are hurt, take it to Oprah.

For a self-proclaimed BR ex-purt, you come out with a lot of uninformed nonsense.

[Stephen Perry]

Stupid is as Stupid does. Live the life Ackman. Harpo's enjoying himself obviously your not. When Harpo get's his cases fire-formed he'll enlighten you on his process.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Easy_E]

Harpo are you getting a good crush on the shoulder ? I just formed a couple hundred rounds . I keep my rifle by the bench and check the brass every so often for fit.
Bring the die down a little at a time till the bolt will shut on the brass snug . Like some of the guys said try a smaller amount till you get the right mix.

I loaded up seven cases to check my fireforming load. 12.0 grains of AA1680 under Midsouth 20gr bullets. This is once fired R&P brass .

[Ackman]

Originally Posted by Stephen Perry

1)Stupid is as Stupid does.
2) Live the life Ackman.
3) Harpo's enjoying himself obviously your not.
4)When Harpo get's his cases fire-formed he'll enlighten you on his process.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

1) You're the poster boy.
2) Ok
3) You ASS-UME too much.
4) That'll be wonderful.

****You forgot to explain my "lack of headspacing knowledge and fireforming," and how I'm doing it wrong.

[Stephen Perry]

Real Done. I have a saying I laugh when I read attack mode responses from guys like you that create no Threads on shooting related items like you don't but rather choose to lurk in the shadows and attempt to slice and dice their way through another man's work. No response necessary I feel Small Caliber is trying to run a clean Forum.

Stephen Perry
Angeles BR

[Ackman]

You're done, no surprise. If you give advice, know what you're talking about.....you don't. And be able to back up what you say.....you can't. Twice I've asked you to explain and back up your statement.....you won't and can't. You bail out. No surprise there.

No I don't start threads. When someone has a question and I've had experience and know the answer, I'll post. Otherwise - unlike you - I know enough to keep quiet.

And I don't "....lurk in the shadows and attempt to slice and dice through another man's work," don't throw that stuff. Your threads ("work") are a joke. Nothing more than essays, poorly disguised setups for you to expound and proselytize.

Again.....if you give advice, know what you're talking about. If you say something, be able to back it up. You won't have to go hide.

[wally bennett]

Every one does it different i have never used 1680 but i used Vit120 after using to much powder and getting case head expabtion primers blown out and dirty pants i started 1.5gr lower than other guys recomended loads and used 10.5gr behind 20grV/Max and stuck with it i would happily use this load in unformed cases all the time but have run out of cases to F/F i get 3,525ft/sec with this load and the best accuracy of all the loads i have tried
With formed cases i use 10.8gr for 3,637ft/sec that is over 1.2gr les than other people use for the same velocity.
Rember every gun, powder, primer,bullet head and shooter have different tolerences and yours is unique to you so be carefull and for me annealing after die forming and before fire forming is a must do, Before i started annealing i lost 50% of my cases to split necks and shoulders and since then after over 2,000rds have only lost 2 cases to split shoulders and none to split necks.
Be carefull listen to everyone but do it your own way and document everything you do so you can reflect on that ruined gun and know what caused it.
Wally

[larryinIA]

Wally,

This is a perfect scenario of what I am talking about, My gun uses the same powder, but I use 11.7 gr, to hit almost exactly the same speeds, and accuracy node, in a formed case. 11.3 is what forms it.

I have formed about 200 using previously fired brass, and about 300 more from virgin brass. I have never annealed, other than to find out it should not be done before forming. I have only ever lost one case to neck splitting. It was the third one ever fired in my rifle, IIRC, it was around 10 gr of N120, on the start of my load work up.

I have crushed more cases figuring out how to do it, than I have ever ruined loading, and firing my rifle.

While it's not rocket science, one must be careful, and work up slowly. Start low, and work up. When the cases are this small, the most minute changes can have huge results.

I would bet, if that is done, one will find the cases form nicely, and the speeds will more likely than not, be in the same area of velocity, as Wally's gun, my gun, and several of the other members' rifles here...around 3650fps

Larry

[ackleyman]

Originally Posted by harpo111

got my bullets in...plan to put a starting load of aa1680 in the cases (10.1gr is what they sent me for a 20gr bullet)....and go shoot a target or two...let you know how it goes. Plan to then anneal the necks, size and trim...hopefully i will end up with some nice cases to work up some loads with.
k

I Form the cases in one pass through the full length sizer then fireform.

I just load, kill varmints while fire forming, then load the formed load.

My cases are always perfect.

Good luck!