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  #1  
Old 12-17-2014, 05:42 PM
charlesasmith charlesasmith is offline
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Default 17MIV vs 20 Vartarg

What is your field experience of these two cartridges in the wind? How about a comparison of the wind deflection of a 90 degree 10 mph wind for both? Shot my 17hmr and 17AH in a heavy wind last summer on a pd trip and quickly put them away. Did not take the 17MIV and my 20 Practical was not yet dialed in.

I know there are a lot of die hard 20 Vartarg owners on this forum that are pd shooters. Would like some real world experience for dealing with the Montana winds. On my last trip the grass was blown flat on the ground and had to hold off 12" @ 100 yds with my .222.

Thanks for your input,

Chuck
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  #2  
Old 12-17-2014, 05:53 PM
Rick in Oregon Rick in Oregon is offline
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Default Rats in the Wind

Chuck, as you know, I shoot both calibers and a lot of rats. That said, the clear wind advantage goes to the 20VT shooting 32gr bullets compared to my M4 shooting 25's.

The .20's just have higher BC's, like the 32gr V-Max for instance....factory listed at .275 BC compared to the .17 cal 25gr at .230 BC.

If wind is your deciding factor, leave your M4 at home and have fun with your Vartarg. JME
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  #3  
Old 12-17-2014, 06:10 PM
ab_bentley ab_bentley is offline
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Default

Rick said it best, both shooting similar weighted bullets, the 20VT will be the clear winner in my book. Having had both I think the 20VT is the best 17M4 out there. You have a clear distinction of going up to a 40gr bullet in the 20VT and when spit from the barrel at near 3800fps it's a no brainer.


Adam
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  #4  
Old 12-17-2014, 08:57 PM
montdoug montdoug is offline
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I just love my Ballistic program . These two loads are out of my archives for the actual loads I shoot, I took em out to 500 yards. The wind drift is for a 10 MPH cross wind. Out here in the afternoon that would typically be a mild 10 MPH cross "breeze" and the chances of it being an exactly full value cross breeze are rare but it'll give ya a comparison .
1st my .17 Fireball which is exactly the same as a .17 MachIV.

The Fireball is just a titch faster (20FPS is almost negligible really), it drops slightly less and drifts a bit less. Hope this makes sense.
These are my personal loads and don't mean others loads with have the same velocities and be the same.

Load Data
~~~~~~~~~

Name: Remington .17 Fire Ball with 25 grain V-Max
Ballistic Coeff: 0.230
Bullet Weight: 25
Velocity: 3800
Target Distance: 250
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 4500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 3800 fps 802 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in
25 yds -0.51 in 3695 fps 758 fpe 0.020 sec 0.08 in -0.58 in 0.06 in
50 yds 0.32 in 3592 fps 716 fpe 0.041 sec 0.31 in -0.52 in 0.21 in
75 yds 0.98 in 3492 fps 677 fpe 0.062 sec 0.72 in -0.41 in 0.46 in
100 yds 1.46 in 3395 fps 640 fpe 0.084 sec 1.30 in -0.26 in 0.80 in
125 yds 1.76 in 3299 fps 604 fpe 0.106 sec 2.07 in -0.05 in 1.28 in
150 yds 1.85 in 3206 fps 571 fpe 0.129 sec 3.04 in 0.21 in 1.88 in
175 yds 1.73 in 3115 fps 539 fpe 0.153 sec 4.22 in 0.54 in 2.59 in
200 yds 1.40 in 3026 fps 508 fpe 0.177 sec 5.63 in 0.93 in 3.40 in
225 yds 0.82 in 2938 fps 479 fpe 0.202 sec 7.26 in 1.39 in 4.34 in
250 yds 0.00 in 2852 fps 452 fpe 0.228 sec 9.15 in 1.93 in 5.42 in
275 yds -1.10 in 2768 fps 425 fpe 0.255 sec 11.32 in 2.56 in 6.66 in
300 yds -2.49 in 2686 fps 400 fpe 0.283 sec 13.77 in 3.28 in 8.04 in
325 yds -4.17 in 2605 fps 377 fpe 0.311 sec 16.52 in 4.10 in 9.56 in
350 yds -6.16 in 2526 fps 354 fpe 0.340 sec 19.57 in 5.02 in 11.22 in
375 yds -8.48 in 2447 fps 332 fpe 0.370 sec 22.96 in 6.06 in 13.04 in
400 yds -11.17 in 2371 fps 312 fpe 0.401 sec 26.71 in 7.22 in 15.03 in
425 yds -14.27 in 2295 fps 292 fpe 0.433 sec 30.88 in 8.53 in 17.23 in
450 yds -17.80 in 2221 fps 274 fpe 0.467 sec 35.47 in 9.99 in 19.63 in
475 yds -21.77 in 2149 fps 256 fpe 0.501 sec 40.51 in 11.61 in 22.22 in
500 yds -26.19 in 2077 fps 240 fpe 0.537 sec 45.99 in 13.40 in 24.99 in




Load Data
~~~~~~~~~

Name: Default Load .20 VarTarg with 32 V-Max's @ 3,780
Ballistic Coeff: 0.210
Bullet Weight: 32
Velocity: 3780
Target Distance: 250
Scope Height: 1.500
Temperature: 70
Altitude: 4500

Ballistic Data
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Range Elevation Velocity Energy ETA Drop Max Y 10mph Wind Deflect
0 yds -1.50 in 3780 fps 1015 fpe 0.000 sec 0.00 in -1.50 in 0.00 in
25 yds -0.48 in 3666 fps 955 fpe 0.020 sec 0.08 in -0.58 in 0.06 in
50 yds 0.37 in 3554 fps 897 fpe 0.041 sec 0.32 in -0.52 in 0.23 in
75 yds 1.06 in 3446 fps 844 fpe 0.062 sec 0.73 in -0.41 in 0.50 in
100 yds 1.56 in 3340 fps 793 fpe 0.084 sec 1.32 in -0.25 in 0.89 in
125 yds 1.86 in 3237 fps 744 fpe 0.107 sec 2.11 in -0.04 in 1.42 in
150 yds 1.96 in 3137 fps 699 fpe 0.131 sec 3.11 in 0.23 in 2.08 in
175 yds 1.84 in 3038 fps 656 fpe 0.155 sec 4.33 in 0.57 in 2.86 in
200 yds 1.48 in 2942 fps 615 fpe 0.180 sec 5.77 in 0.98 in 3.77 in
225 yds 0.88 in 2849 fps 577 fpe 0.206 sec 7.47 in 1.46 in 4.83 in
250 yds 0.00 in 2757 fps 540 fpe 0.233 sec 9.45 in 2.04 in 6.06 in
275 yds -1.17 in 2667 fps 505 fpe 0.261 sec 11.71 in 2.70 in 7.45 in
300 yds -2.63 in 2579 fps 472 fpe 0.289 sec 14.27 in 3.47 in 9.00 in
325 yds -4.43 in 2492 fps 441 fpe 0.319 sec 17.16 in 4.34 in 10.71 in
350 yds -6.54 in 2407 fps 412 fpe 0.349 sec 20.37 in 5.33 in 12.57 in
375 yds -9.06 in 2324 fps 384 fpe 0.381 sec 23.98 in 6.45 in 14.66 in
400 yds -12.00 in 2242 fps 357 fpe 0.414 sec 28.01 in 7.73 in 16.97 in
425 yds -15.38 in 2163 fps 332 fpe 0.448 sec 32.49 in 9.16 in 19.50 in
450 yds -19.21 in 2084 fps 309 fpe 0.483 sec 37.41 in 10.76 in 22.23 in
475 yds -23.49 in 2007 fps 286 fpe 0.520 sec 42.79 in 12.53 in 25.15 in
500 yds -28.32 in 1932 fps 265 fpe 0.558 sec 48.71 in 14.51 in 28.31 in
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Last edited by montdoug; 12-17-2014 at 09:02 PM.
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  #5  
Old 12-17-2014, 09:15 PM
montdoug montdoug is offline
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I just went back and recalculated the .20 VarTarg giving it the same 3,800FPS velocity as the .17 Fireball cause I was doubting my numbers . Off the top of my head I'd of said exactly what Rick and AB said that the VarTarg would out perform the .17 Fireball/MachIV in the wind. Taking the VarTarg to the exact 3,800FPS I figured it again and this time the VarTargs 32 V-Max dropped 28 inches even and drifted 28.12 inches. A miniscule difference to be sure but still slightly in favor of the .17 Fireball. I am surprised!!
I wonder if Hornady has changed their BC's?? I'll be back .
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  #6  
Old 12-17-2014, 09:19 PM
montdoug montdoug is offline
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Nope! That's what they are still saying for BC's and it's all in the BC but it sure is counter-intuitive!! You could go with the 40 grainer and gain a lotta BC but then you'd loose velocity so it looks like a push! Not enough difference between the two rifles performance to shake a stick at.
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Last edited by montdoug; 12-17-2014 at 09:22 PM.
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  #7  
Old 12-17-2014, 09:38 PM
charlesasmith charlesasmith is offline
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Default Rick

Checked the BCs for Hornady, Nosler, & Sierra 32 gr bullets. They were rated between .210-.221. Where did you find the rating of .275? Was that for the 39 gr Sierra?

Chuck
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  #8  
Old 12-17-2014, 09:57 PM
Alex Alex is offline
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Default The 17M4 and 20Vt are my favorite rounds

but I have to differ with my buddy Doug.

I could never get the 25 gr VMaxes to shoot in my 17M4s. They require a greater twist rate than most are cut for. I wouldn't shoot them any faster than Doug does, as I think the pressures are beginning to go beyond what I, personally, am comfortable with. I do like Berger, Nagel, and Starke 25's, but they have significantly lower BC's


I don't run my 20VTs over 3800 with 32 gr. pills of any kind, either. As well, I think the 32 gr pills are the bee's knees for the 20VT. Might be able to push them to the 35 gr. Berger for 'yotes. I leave the 39 and 40 grers to my 20 Tac and 204 Ruger.


Check the BC on any bullet you shoot, as it defines the relative wind drift and bullet drop. Essentially it is a measure of the "drag" on the bullet, or the inverse to the rate it will slow down, which turns into relative bullet drift and drop.


My remarks are made with the clear knowledge that everyone has both a navel and opinion. Had a student once that loved wearing a pin that said, "Everyone is entitled to my opinion!" Plus as I get older, I get more conservative!


My 2 cents worth.


Alex

Last edited by Alex; 12-17-2014 at 09:59 PM.
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  #9  
Old 12-17-2014, 09:59 PM
charlesasmith charlesasmith is offline
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Default Doug: Thanks for all of your work.

I used 10 mph for wind as it seems to be the standard for ballistic programs. Not sure I ever shot in a 90 degree 10 mph wind. I found the same info RE: paper calculations. My 17MIV was loaded with the Hornady 25 gr HP (lower BC than the V-Max) and not loaded hot @ 3750 fps. Your calculations were almost spot on for my loads, except I have shot @ lower elevations for sage rats and prairie dogs.

That's why I asked for field experience. Although, I find it difficult to believe that it should matter. Some people have found that shooting in the field results in a different experience than what the ballistic programs have predicted. Not sure why.

Will keep my 17 AH, but considering not continuing with the 17MIV although it is a very flat shooting cartridge. Really concerned about shooting in the Montana wind next Spring. Hopefully, my 20 Practical loads will be ironed out by then. Still considering the 20 VT.

Maybe I could stop by for a visit sometime as my cabin is only 90+ miles from you.

Chuck
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  #10  
Old 12-17-2014, 10:03 PM
montdoug montdoug is offline
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Chuck I went to Hornady's web site, to bullets, by caliber, 25 grain V-Max and 32 grain V-Max.
The .17 cal 25 grain V-Max BC says .230 just like on the graph above and the .20 cal 32 grain V-Max's BC is .210 just like above.
Not sure about the .275 number??
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