I found a bag of this brass....

[dedogs]

That seems odd. Did you by any chance anneal this brass before working on it? We are after all talking about Taiwanese brass and there is no telling what kind of alloy they supply or QC they perform. dedogs

[kenbro]

Originally Posted by Ratbuster

Dedogg,

It is a 30 degree angle cutter which I use after FL sizing with the Hornady FL die. The die is a bit inconsistent in setting headspace measurement (shoulder bump), varying a few thousandths. The die contacts the shell holder firmly so I don't know what is going on there. Some of the shells show little or no turning into the neck. I did trim them all with a Giraud trimmer before turning.

Could try using a set of Redding Competition Shell Holders if the die won't set consistently.
Ken.

[L Cazador]

After forming hundreds of cases of 20 Vartarg brass from LC brass, that shoulder is typical of how the case will look before fireforming. Don't worry about that, after fireforming it will go away. You're not cutting too much into the shoulder, from your pic that looks like the right amount. It's better to err on the plus side on the cut into the shoulder than not cut enough. If you don't cut enough, it will result in a donut. The brass will flow forward on fireforming and the cut will disappear. The reason you're getting an inconsistent cut into the shoulder is because you have an inconsistent amount of shoulder bump. Your shell holder must abut the sizing die firmly so you're headspace is consistent. Use of a competition shell holder set will adjust your shoulder bump(headspace) consistently. I had to make my own shell holder to get the right amount of bump for forming. Use a headspace guage for setting and adjusting shoulder bump or headspace as it should be called. I annealed before forming and then again after forming, before fireforming.

[20 EXTREME]

Originally Posted by Ratbuster

Dedogg,

It is a 30 degree angle cutter which I use after FL sizing with the Hornady FL die. The die is a bit inconsistent in setting headspace measurement (shoulder bump), varying a few thousandths. The die contacts the shell holder firmly so I don't know what is going on there. Some of the shells show little or no turning into the neck. I did trim them all with a Giraud trimmer before turning.

It is likely not the die or shell holder. Forming brass from 223, for the shorter rounds, gets down to where the brass is a lot thicker at the neck and shoulder. There is a lot of tension built up which causes spring-back at the shoulder datum so you have to set your die to compensate. Uneven tension causes some to spring back more than others by a thou or two. This is why I like to turn the necks at 22 caliber, before sizing down to 20 caliber as the tension is not as great. I have to use a FL 222 die to move the shoulder back and going to 221 makes it even worse. I prefer to use 222Rem Brass as it resolves a lot of these issues.

[Ratbuster]

The two cases on the left in that pic are Lapua brass. The first on the left is in original 221 FB state. The middle is obviously the one I neck turned.

In regards to the varying headspace and resulting neck turning variance, below is my process:

1. Full length size the Lapua Fireball brass with a Hornady FL Vartarg die with the expander ball in place. I typical get .0005 to .00015 neck runout which is better than I have gotten in the past with neck bushing dies. The die makes firm contact with the shell holder.

2. Trim cases with Giraud trimmer

3. Turn necks to .0125

4. Anneal with Skips Black Betty annealing machine (I made) which is easy to produce consistent results

The VT brass I am working on now is new batch of 400 Lapuas for a second Vartarg. My first batch of Lapua cases for Vartarg #1 developed donuts in about 45% of them for the same reason, inconsistent length of neck turning at the neck/shoulder junction. I reamed the ones with donuts which was super quick and easy with a K&M tool. I found the donuts when trying to neck size with a Lee Collet die. That die plainly tells you if the donuts are there.

Why does the competition shell holder help? I do have a set of Redding comp shell holders but have not had an occasion to use them. I thought they were just a way to adjust the amount of bump/shoulder setback.

I appreciate all your thoughts. No newbie comments allowed!!! LOL

[L Cazador]

You may not be pushing the shoulder back consistently the same amount. This why I had to make a special shell holder. You may have to grind a small amount off your shell holder to get more shoulder bump and achieve the result you want. Don't worry about the excess headspace, when you fireform it will form to your chamber, then just shoulder bump .001"-.002" when you resize. If your shell holder abuts the ram firmly, then you're already at the max headspace with that shell holder. One thing to note is that Lapua brass does not have the same dimension at the head as Remington or Lake City brass. It is .001" larger. While that dimension works in Fireball chambers, it is a bit tight in a Vartarg chamber. Original Vartarg reamer dimensions call for a .374" head diameter, while Lapua is .375". I wonder if your die dimension is also made for the smaller head diameter. I would call the die maker and confirm.

[20 EXTREME]

Originally Posted by L Cazador

You may not be pushing the shoulder back consistently the same amount. This why I had to make a special shell holder. You may have to grind a small amount off your shell holder to get more shoulder bump and achieve the result you want. Don't worry about the excess headspace, when you fireform it will form to your chamber, then just shoulder bump .001"-.002" when you resize. If your shell holder abuts the ram firmly, then you're already at the max headspace with that shell holder. One thing to note is that Lapua brass does not have the same dimension at the head as Remington or Lake City brass. It is .001" larger. While that dimension works in Fireball chambers, it is a bit tight in a Vartarg chamber. Original Vartarg reamer dimensions call for a .374" head diameter, while Lapua is .375". I wonder if your die dimension is also made for the smaller head diameter. I would call the die maker and confirm.

You are partly right in your analysis but the original VT chamber specs are .374", at the .200" datum, which is ahead of the web by about .030". Winchester and Remington brass run between 0.372" and .3728" at the head, as you are calling it, and about 0.3715"- 0.3723 at the .200 datum. LC brass measures .3732" at the head and nearly the same at the base datum. Lapua Brass measures .375"- .3752 when sized with proper HS at the head and .375" at the base datum. This means that the sizing die has to size part of the web from .375 down to .3745". This puts a alot of strain on your press and if it is not strong enough could be the reason, along with shoulder spring-back, that you are experiencing this problem. The brass will be a very tight fit in your standard VT chamber.

[Ratbuster]

First of all I have sized and shot 500 Lapua cases in my Vartarg and there has never been a tight fitting cartridge in the chamber due to the base being a bit too large in dia. for the chamber.

I called Hornady about the varying shoulder bump/headspace length. Again, I am using a Hornady 20VT FL die with the expander ball. The Hornady tech suggested the expander ball could be pulling the neck/shoulder in varying amounts depending upon smoothness of the expander and the type of lube. I was using Hornady One Shot, making sure the inside of the necks got lubed. The Hornady tech suggested polishing the expander and/or trying graphite powder inside the neck. I looked at the expander which was super smooth already. I tried the graphite powder, resized about 25 cases a second time and they all came out within .001 headspace, most within .0005.

Problem solved, YEA!

[Ratbuster]

Does anyone have any suggestions on applying the graphite powder to the inside of case necks efficiently? I am dipping the case neck into the container and tapping it to shake off the excess. Messy and slow; if someone knows a better way please I would appreciate hearing about it.

[ab_bentley]

Throw that Hornady away. Redding Type S. Pulling an expander ball back through a sized neck is just asking for trouble, especially with Hornady using the original 224 nk diameter.

Adam