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  #1  
Old 04-17-2016, 10:26 PM
Abitnutz Abitnutz is offline
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Default Can someone explain to me why this won't work?

This may be somewhat off topic but can someone tell me why this doesn't work mechanically?

I've seen many 3-lug bolts. None of which have a full length non-rotating claw extractor like a classic Mauser.

As I understand it, a non-rotating extractor is the principal way to have controlled round feeding.

Why can't you have 3-lugs, evenly spaced around a bolt and a Mauser style non-rotating claw extractor? Is there something obvious I'm not understanding?
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Old 04-17-2016, 11:12 PM
trotterlg trotterlg is offline
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Don't think there is any mechanical reason you cannot do it, probably there are none (that you or I know of) because they are mostly required in military weapons. They are built so the rifle will feed in any orientation, and eject in any orientation, so mostly military types need to work that way. Two lugs are easier to make and it is easier to machine two channels in the action, I would guess that ease of manufacture and requirements just come together so the two suit each other. Larry
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Old 04-17-2016, 11:21 PM
Abitnutz Abitnutz is offline
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It just seems that every combination under the sun has been tried in firearms designs. I'm just surprised that no one has at least tried to make a 3-lug, controlled feed Mauser...as fanatical as opinions can be about controlled feed vs push feed, it would seem that such a design would have surfaced.
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Old 04-17-2016, 11:33 PM
trotterlg trotterlg is offline
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It is just so much easier to do a push feed than a controlled feed that I don't think the price difference would support any gain, real or perceived. Probably compounded by the fact that most every commercial action needs to be able to handle many different types of cartridges and the military action just has to handle one well. Larry
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Old 04-18-2016, 12:58 AM
Chickenthief Chickenthief is offline
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The Danish firm Schultz & Larsen did a rifle with 9 lugs i 3 rows of 3, many moons ago.
The "advantage" is/was a 60deg bolt lift and lots of strength, but in reality i never saw or heard of a rifle that did bear on more than 6 or 7 lugs, tops.

For an action to be max stiff and max strength the lugs need to be as close to the chamber as possible wich means that you are hard pressed to get them all there (3) and not be in the way of the feeding ramp. Most switch barrel guns has the lugs engage in the barrel itself and the action is only a guide for the bolt.
That and everyone and his brother thinks that an Afrifan rifle has to have a claw extractor or you'll get killed in s split second.

Just think of the Swiss Schmidt-Rubin 1889 rifle that has a bolt that is about a country mile long, fires a cartridge compareable to the 30-06 and has the lugs at the rear. Talk about bolt flex:


If it worked it would be the craze of all gunmakers, but pretty much as with cars, what you see out there is what works the best with fewest parts and problems.
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Old 04-18-2016, 12:56 PM
barretcreek barretcreek is offline
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Okay, let me take a shot at it. On a Mauser type, the claw extractor rides along side the one lug and enters the locking lug recess with the lug. So if you go with a three or more lug design and the lugs are larger in diameter than the bolt body, the claw extractor has to enter the locking lug recess with one of the lugs. So going around the perimeter of the bolt the other lugs need some way to get into the lug recess. Start to loose a lot of metal (and strength). Cutting away at the receiver side wall or the rail opposite the ejection port and you're losing strength and rigidity.
Every multi-lug action I know of has the lugs the same outside diameter as the bolt body. Mk V, A-Bolt, AR. Coopers? Now you have two problems to deal with. The claw extractor can't be wider than the lug or the lug doesn't have a bearing surface. Or you eliminate a couple of lugs (Krag) so the claw can enter the recess and loose strength. There's also the question of do unevenly spaced lugs give a different vibration when the rifle is fired so there a tendency to inaccuracy. Supposedly a three lug pattern gives that nice vibration, helping to center everything.
This explanation does not meet the KISS parameters but it'll have to do.
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Old 04-21-2016, 02:49 AM
chris allen chris allen is offline
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Not trying to hijack but over the years I have seen less problems with the extractors on the push feed style such as
savage 110 and the win 70 than the "claw style 98 mauser
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Old 04-21-2016, 03:02 AM
Chickenthief Chickenthief is offline
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Lets be fair, extraction is only a problem in battle/with shitty ammo or way to high internal pressure.
So whatever we chose will be ok regardless of it being: Mauser claw, Sako claw or Remington/Winchester micro "claw".

No?
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Old 04-21-2016, 04:45 AM
trotterlg trotterlg is offline
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Chickenthief: It really isn't about extraction, it is about feeding, a controlled round feed will feed in any position, the round is controlled at all times, it will never fall off the bolt head or out of the magazine no matter the rifle position, it is either captured in the magazine or captured on the bolt head until the empty is ejected. The magazine feeds the round into the claw extractor on the bolt head which captures it so it cannot fall out/off while being fed into the chamber. Larry
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Old 04-23-2016, 07:57 PM
Bayou City Boy Bayou City Boy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by trotterlg View Post
Chickenthief: It really isn't about extraction, it is about feeding, a controlled round feed will feed in any position, the round is controlled at all times, it will never fall off the bolt head or out of the magazine no matter the rifle position, it is either captured in the magazine or captured on the bolt head until the empty is ejected. The magazine feeds the round into the claw extractor on the bolt head which captures it so it cannot fall out/off while being fed into the chamber. Larry
^^^^^^^^^^^this......

Personally, I like a CRF rifle for my hunting rifles simply because I like the Model 70 CRF action and not because its needed in 95% of all hunting situations. It might be nice to have in the maybe 5% of situations where you might be hunting things that might bite you and you want to be certain that a new cartridge gets into the chamber even if you're standing on your head trying to be safe from the critter being pursued....or that's maybe pursueing you. All extractors work for their intended purpose. Its simply a personal choice.


-BCB
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Last edited by Bayou City Boy; 04-23-2016 at 08:17 PM.
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