Heavy grain bullets in small calibers-Why?

[DAA]

Got a buddy that has ordered a reamer, building himself a rig to launch .224, 75's and 80's, in the 3700 - 3800 fps range. Having his cake and eating it too. Heavy for caliber high BC, and high velocity.

Dedicated coyote rig.

Ought to be fun for a little while .

- DAA

[Bayou City Boy]

Why does there have to be only one right/correct answer....?

I used the 22-250 as a prime example of differences. I haven no allusions in my mind that, as Dave alluded to, that the barrel in an 8" twist 22-250 will have the same life as a 14" twist barrel will all other factors being the same. And trajectory will suffer some with many cartridges far more than with others when heavy for caliber bullets are used.

Since pd shooting is being used to say why not to do something, the 8" twist 22-250 will never see a pd town while I own it. It's strictly a hunting rifle. That said, I bet it will be an excellent hunting rifle at long ranges where minimal shots are taken each day in comparison to shooting pd's.

In essence, some things are worth trying in some scenarios and maybe not in others. And I like to play with different things at times. I have no unexplained results in my mid as to what a 14" twist 22-250 is capable of with say a 52 grain BTHP bullet while hunting coyotes. I want to see what it will do with a 70 grain bullet in an 8" twist 22-250 barrel in the same endeavor of hunting coyotes.

Until I'm proven wrong, I'm betting that the 22-250 case is big enough that I won't see 30-30 like trajectory but I will see increased long range killing power (whatever that is in some minds since we all know that "dead is dead"). Actually I know for a fact that it won't exhibit a rainbow like trajectory from the experience of others who shoot heavy for caliber bullets in the 22-250 cartridge.

The ultimate for me in this endeavor was several years ago when I had the previously mentioned 22-6MM Rem rifle built. It utilizes (in reality) a 257 Roberts case necked down one step below a 6MM Remington while shooting slightly heavier for caliber .224" bullets. I personally do know after two years of use that it kills coyotes very effectively at extended ranges of say 400+ yards with a laser-like trajectory. Its all packaged in a hunting type rifle with a stainless #2 contour Douglas barrel on a Montana Rifle Company medium length stainless action sitting in a synthetic stock. And it has a conventional Zeiss 5x15x scope on it without any large easy to reach spinning turrets and overly large-large objective bells (without whistles) to adjust parallax. It has side parallax adjustment but its normally set at 150 yards while hunting with it. The reticle is a bit busy with numerous hash lines but they are slender yet easy to see lines. IIRC, its called the z800 reticle or something like that. It has no bulky dots and dashes or whatever to compensate for wind, etc., that block a good part of the target image at any and all ranges.

In a pd town, just shooting a 223 all day would get boring. And I personally wouldn't be doing it with a heavy varmint weight AR style rifle. but that's just me. If the next guy thinks that is the way to go, good for him. And that is not a knock on AR rifles. I own more than just one and I enjoy all of them when I use them. In fact, I seldom use anything with a bullet as large as a .224" bullet in a PD town, and what I use shoots conventional weight bullets for the barrel bore diameter. But again that's just me.

I also get tired of bacon, eggs, toast and coffee every morning for breakfast........... Just a toasted cinnamon crunch bagle with peanut butter on it goes down easily some mornings. I'll probably still have the coffee with it however......... It steadies my nerves for the day.......

EDITED TO ADD: Pushing maybe 10 years ago, Tikka came out with an 8" twist barrel T3 rifle in 223 Rem caliber. I bought one of the rifles and I was not impressed with the down range ballistics of the cartridge with heavy for caliber bullets. For me, in the 223 Rem cartridge, significant velocity was lost with the heavier bullets. Hence, someone else now owns that rifle, I presume, as it got dumped in a trade years ago. Maybe the new buyer thinks that combination is the best thing since cherry pie was invented, or maybe its making the rounds among buyers? Who knows? I know for one I don't wonder about it nor do I wish I had it back. It didn't fit my wants or needs (if there were any needs in the equation) at that time.

That experience in no way affected my thought process when Tikka announced the 22-250 with an 8" twist barrel earlier this year. It offered a cheap road to a new challenge with something to learn. At least that was how my mind processed the news.

-BCB

[william t. oviatt]

I REALLY like this Post and the thought processes it reveals...
It shows the essence of the Saubier-type Mind of the members here!

The diversity of thought in so many directions...opens up so much subject matter! it's not about right or wrong methods, but the application of different conditions and solutions in the pursuit of one's goals!

This Post represents one of the best reasons to come to this website!!!

Thanks Guys!

Bill

[Daryl]

Originally Posted by varmntr

Understand, but as Jim is questioning, If I want more range, wouldn't I go to a caliber more suited to that range. I currently shoot my 22hornet a lot and for me the realistic range is up to 150 - 175, yes, I can go past 200 and maybe 250 with the 22Hornet, but typically I would go to a 223 based caliber for 200-300 and up to a 260 type for stuff in excess of 300.... To me Jim's question is one I have had as well. Why would I want to use my 22Hornet with a 50-55 grn bullet and go out past 220-250yds...... Not much left in the tank at that range.....The 35-45 grains work well for my Hornet.
Don

Interesting, but I found my Hornet worked fine to 350yards regularly using 40gr. HP's and 40gr. Vmax at 3,340fps from my CZ, and although it took 3 shots to range in, managed a field rat at 454yards using 40gr. BT's.(3,357fps-CZ)
We use HMR's with 17gr. Vmax. for head and chest shots to 200yards. Not much wind to contend with, where we shoot them.

[georgeld]

Interesting. I'm fairly well of the same opinion as the OP.

Bill: is that 2700fps correct? Seems mighty slow to me.

Anyone shooting 35's in a .22/250, or .223 will quickly learn the lesson I did.
They WILL NOT hold accuracy beyond much over 200yrs. At least with my 14" twist 223.
They scattered all over the hillside, never could tell where they might hit.
Some were 75-100 yards to the side of where they were aimed from prone rock solid rest on a bipod.

Shook me up as they were one holers at 100. Funny thing, 40gr held right on out beyond my ability.
For general p/dog shooting I use 55gr. IF I can't have ricochets at all.
Like around livestock or buildings, I'll use the 40's as they explode on contact even with weeds.
Never had a problem doing it this way.

[sgtg]

Swift220; Hey I apologise for my wise guy answer about heavy bullets earlier in this post.

One example; From what I've seen with 32 vrs 40 Vmax at 250-300 and past the 40's hold up much better.

A 105 Bullet in a 6BR at 600-1000 works well (high BC), but a 55 Blitzking is explosive on Pdogs at closer ranges (lower BC) at 600-1000 they would be running out of steam quickly.

It really comes down to range and what you'r using them for. sgtg

[william t. oviatt]

Originally Posted by varmntr

Understand, but as Jim is questioning, If I want more range, wouldn't I go to a caliber more suited to that range. I currently shoot my 22hornet a lot and for me the realistic range is up to 150 - 175, yes, I can go past 200 and maybe 250 with the 22Hornet, but typically I would go to a 223 based caliber for 200-300 and up to a 260 type for stuff in excess of 300.... To me Jim's question is one I have had as well. Why would I want to use my 22Hornet with a 50-55 grn bullet and go out past 220-250yds...... Not much left in the tank at that range.....The 35-45 grns work well for my Hornet.

Don

Don

This is how my shooting ranges work for me, also!
The difference I have found with using heavier bullets, with faster twist rates, is the performance on terminal vermin is up'ed by a magnitude or two!

I don't try to increase the distance with my 24 Calhoon, I am just getting more energy into the target, at the ranges I normally shoot.

The first cartridge I tried this combination, was the 6mm Garin...It was a 1/7 twist and the 55 grain bullets far out performed the same rifles in previous 6 Garins I had.

I then tried this in the 243 Horny toad (221x6mm) and same improvement.

Then did a 22 TCM necked up to 6mm...same amazing performance.

I now have the 24 Calhoon, that Jim did for me, and with the Calhoon case, I have the same powder capacity as the 6mm Garin. I may lose some fps, with the faster twist, but the payback of high RPM is well worth it!

As more people get experience with this combination in colony critter shooting, the performance is addicting and more folks will get involved. It definitely puts "more" of what most shooters of small cartridges desire in a varmint shooting rig!

I have caught a lot of criticism on this, but I have put a lot of experience and $s into this combination. And, for me, it has been a great improvement in my shooting Prairie dogs and local vermin!

So, I can only say, before criticizing, try it for yourself. Find out for yourself what I have, and the others that have tried this combination, have found!
The performance will impress.

J.M. (humble, but experienced)O. And desire to share with you guys....

Bill

[Swift220]

Thank you guys, it's been a very interesting and informative discussion for me. I've learned a lot from it and it's interesting about different peoples thoughts and experiences.
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SGTG, no apologies necessary, no offense was taking. After all, it is a discussion board with a lot of opinions and all welcome.
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William T (Bill) I used to know the equation to figure bullet RPM but I have forgotten it and a lot about bullet RPM. Isn't it about 300,000 RPM when a bullet starts coming apart, a varmint bullet?
My question to you is with the fast twists, have you ever shot a bullet fast enough to have it disintegrate or come apart before reaching the target? I'm just curious how much velocity a fast twist varmint bullet will take.

And Bill, you are correct, Saubier is a great informative discussion site, the best to me.

Jim D
SE Texas

[Varmint Shooter]

To answer one of Swift220 questions, I have a 20-223AI with a 7 twist barrel that
will only shoot 40gr to 55gr bullets with great accuracy. Bullets less than that will
come apart before reaching a 50 yard target, won't show any signs of reaching it.
A lot of varmints are still alive and me wondering why. Like they say,
a learning process.
P.S. Barrel company made mistake on twist, but made good on their mistake with a
new barrel.

[william t. oviatt]

Jim

When I started doing the fast twists, I talked to Hornady about their varmint bullets. Their bullets are designed to handle much larger powder capacity cartridges than the one's I tested (30+ grains and less). So, the stresses that these smaller powder capacity cases can exert on factory bullets, is far less than cartridges like: 22-250, 220 Swift, and 22WSSM, that commercial bullets are designed to handle.

So, the cartridges I have tested may come close to larger traditional cartridge's normal RPMs. but, never come close to the design max.

The neat thing is to get performance of explosiveness similar to larger varmint cartridges, but using much less powder, and improving the explosiveness of conventional small cases by upping the RPM!

It works...

Bill