Saubier.com  



Go Back   Saubier.com > Saubier.com Forums > Small Caliber Discussion Board

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-23-2008, 11:49 AM
Qaz Qaz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 828
Default Ruger #1 vs ?

I have always read that the Ruger #1 action was so strong that you can load it with hotter loads than with a bolt gun. How much hotter? Could you take a unmodified round and load it up to AI levels? What gives with this kind of info and what do writers mean by it? What is the limiting factor in this equation? I hope the question I am asking is clear.

Qaz
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-23-2008, 01:07 PM
Brooks Brooks is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 481
Default taint the action

as it is the brass. Brass is your weakest link.
#1's are strong but don't go tempting fate.
Brooks
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-23-2008, 05:49 PM
iiranger iiranger is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Posts: 152
Default What writers???

Quote:
Originally Posted by Qaz View Post
I have always read that the Ruger #1 action was so strong that you can load it with hotter loads than with a bolt gun. How much hotter? Could you take a unmodified round and load it up to AI levels? What gives with this kind of info and what do writers mean by it? What is the limiting factor in this equation? I hope the question I am asking is clear.

Qaz
Who ever you are listening to, you should find more responsible sources!

There is all sorts of opinions... Facts? Scarcer. 98's were proofed by Germany to approx 80K CUP and expected to work forever at about 50K... The Germans did not want to waste steel... O.K. In USA for liability reasons, no doubt, rifles are proofed higher. One Hornady manual talked of blowing up 98's with 270 Weatherby loads that a Mark V took without whimper.

No doubt Ruger uses more and newer steel than the military makers of WW II. My concern would be extraction. BRASS is the weakest link.

Brass, cartridge brass, begins to be come "plastic" as in "liquid" around 56K CUP. It flows.

GUESS WHAT? The primer cup is brass. Now the pressure has to get back thru that tiny "flash hole," but you get it up to around 55K CUP and it turns to a mush/liquid/plastic and it won't hold anything in...

Hot gases at 55K CUP are in the 4,000 degree temps. Don't recall if that is F or C. Doesn't matter. Cutting torch works at 2,000 degrees. They get loose...

This hot gas gets back to the "lugs" holding the gun shut and cuts them and parts start moving AND your face is just behind this...

It only takes a tiny piece and if you are lucky they bury you. If not, you may spend the rest of your life with a white stick, tap, tap, tapping... You may need multiple operations to make your face look presentable... (and your insurance is sure gonna be thrilled to pay for that... bet)... Nothing I want anything to do with.

If things are such and the primer holds, the base of the case may melt and let go... [TOO HOT, don't!!! please].

And if you are so lucky as to not hurt yourself, this case is going to be worthless except as scrap brass. Subjected to those pressures, the spring back is gone. It may take a mallet and rod (brass, please) to knock it out. Seating a new primer is easy and when you hold the case up base down it falls out (expanded primer pocket)...

This is like the FOOL who takes the family car to the drag strip or circle track to "try it out..." and running at speeds well beyond factory design, blows something.

You want an AI, please have the chamber cut by a worthy 'smith. You have to try an extra .5 grains. I cannot stop you, but I will NOT stand close while you are shooting. You think you can make up for the reality of physics with a bit stronger gun/steel... Please be sure your life insurance is in place, paid up, and your will is ready for your loved ones, and your health insurance... You are begging to need it. LUCK!!! (that is sarcasm, sorry).
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-23-2008, 06:21 PM
Mntngoat Mntngoat is offline
Supporting Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Southern Kalifornia
Posts: 3,437
Default

heres what happens when you try to run Lapua 17 PPC brass at about 60K CUP.
The Ruger#1 action stayed intact, but locked up the block due to the brass.



ML
__________________
When I die I hope my wife doesn't sell my gear for what I told her I paid for it.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-23-2008, 06:21 PM
bcp bcp is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: SW WA
Posts: 325
Default

If you want more power, sell it and buy another rifle, or have it rechambered to a bigger cartridge of the same caliber.

I think the stories of the #1 being stronger come from comments and loads concerning old black powder cartridges like the 45-70. It is much stronger than most original rifles for those cartridges.

Most bolt actions have about 1/8 inch of the cartridge sticking out of the chamber. The #1 completely encloses the cartridge EXCEPT for about 1/8 inch exposure for the extractor, so brass is still the weak link in the system.

Bruce

Last edited by bcp; 06-23-2008 at 06:24 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-23-2008, 09:56 PM
foxhunter foxhunter is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: new mexico
Posts: 3,413
Send a message via AIM to foxhunter
Default

pushing a std cartridge to aI velocities is a sure way to toast the throat in the barrel in a hurry, besides being dangerous. pay close attention to michaels post, he's been here and done that.

the week points as were previously pointed out are the brass and primer, not the action. when one of these components lets go the gas managment system does it's job. keep in mind this can mean split wood and the like, not to mention injury to yourself.
__________________
I post here because it keeps the riffraff away.
'Life's Journey is not to arrive at the grave safely in
a well preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways, totally worn out, shouting, Holy sh!t... What a Ride!
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-24-2008, 01:36 PM
Qaz Qaz is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 828
Default

If the brass is the limiting factor and WSM ammo is loaded to a higher pressure than their standard counterparts, then I am guessing that the brass is either thicker or harder. Following that reasoning, then you could push 223 or 308 rounds harder using military brass since it is loaded to a higher pressure than you could using Remington or Winchester. Is this right?
I am trying to understand the concepts and theories here more than the practical applications.

Qaz
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-28-2008, 02:17 PM
Daryl Daryl is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Prince George, B.C. Canada
Posts: 4,273
Default

Note that Lapua brass does not have the head strength of brass we are more familiar with. Years ago, Seely Masker sectioned a whack of them, showing a sort of 'balloon-head' type of construction, with a recess that ran back around the perifery against the case wall. The blown case pictured above would not have happened at that pressure level if it was based on BR brass, as the BR brass is solid at that point without the perifery recess. BR brass can be, and it's parent cases routinely are factory loaded to 63,000PSI in normal actions.
: A new member to this forum, is Harry Nickolson, good friend of mine, a gun smith retired who has a great deal of experience with #1's, and loves them. His current 6PPC or maybe it's a 6BR, is very accurat and consistant in it's accurcy. Harry can milk accuracy from a #1 like no one else I know. I've had a few factory #1's that produced excelent accurcy - even called a liar once concerning the .218's accuracy, but accurate then can be. Yes, they're very strong, but as noted above, the brass and chambering/extractor cut are the weak points - with any action.
__________________
Daryl

Last edited by Daryl; 06-28-2008 at 02:21 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-29-2008, 02:49 AM
Kevin Gullette Kevin Gullette is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Wichita Falls, The Republic of Texas
Posts: 1,021
Default I was wondering....

......when Michael would chime in, on this particular subject.

BTW.....I believe the "balloon" casehead design was the old 220 Russian case. Not the current Lapua brass.

Also, I do not think a No.1 action, or any falling/rolling block action design, is as "strong" as a modern bolt action.

Just my $0.02.

Kevin
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:43 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.