Lee Collet Neck sizer for 20VT and 20 Practical

[Ratbuster]

Just wanted to let those that have Vartargs and Practicals....a Ruger 204 Lee Collet die works great without modification for the 20 Practical. It sizes about 60% of the neck which works very well.

Lee's website shows the 20 VT on the list of cartridges they will not custom make a collet die for because the case is too short. I questioned them on that because they custom made a collet die for a 17HH last summer which is about the same length as the Vartarg case. They said they had recently decided they could make a collet die for the Vartarg and they are in the process of doing that for me now. If you have not tried Lee Collet dies they are a great way to go.... No lube, excellent concentricity, they work the brass less than dies with expander balls, they are inexpensive ($40 for standard, $70 for custom) and are more tolerant of different neck wall thickness than bushing dies.

Another thing I found when necking down 20 Practicals....Using Redding bushing dies gave much more runout than a 20/223 FL die from CH4D. For the 20P I run the 223 case through a Lee 223 FL die without the expander/decapper which partially necks the case down then I finish the job with the CH4D FL die with decapper/expander. Easy and low runout. After the first firing I switch to the 204R collet die.

[charlesasmith]

My 20 P has a zero freebore. The 39 gr Sierra is into the donut @ the shoulder/neck junction when seating 0.0020 off jam. Now I have to go back and ream out the do-nut of my necked down brass. What is the free bore of yours?

Chuck

[ramos]

Something is not right if you are having run-out issues with a Type-S die. Is it a FL, or neck only die?

The collet die may be tolerant of differing neck thicknesses but, should the shooter not desire consistent thickness? I know I do.

Not bashing the Lee Collet Die. I know there are lots of reloaders that swear by them. Just saying that a properly set up Type-S dies is capable of amazing consistency and concentricity with properly prepared brass.

Curious to know if you are measuring for concentricity, after sizing, on an empty case or loaded round. Could yield two very different results.

[Lenard]

I terminated my 204, thus no need for the Lee Neck Sizer. I cut .100 off the bottom of the collet and then used it for my 20 TAC. Works perfect. Should work just right on the 20 Practical.

I posted this some time ago, and another fellow here said just remove more of the collet for the 20 VT.

[Ratbuster]

Ramos,

It was a Redding neck bushing die. I tried it with and without a 20 cal carbide sizer button; bad results both ways. I talked to Redding several times about it, they were without any solutions except I was sizing too much in one pass. That was not the case as I was stepping the bushings down in .004 increments. The owner of CH4D said he will not make neck sizing bushing dies because the case is unsupported and by very nature will likely have runout. I measured the same neck runout with and without a bullet..it did not make a difference.

I also had big runout with the Hornady FL 20 Vartarg die. Hornady sent me a new decapper/expander but it did not help at all. If I size a case in that die without the decapper/expander it comes out straight. For necking down the Fireball I ended up using a Redding Vartarg body die which sizes the neck just right for the bullet. A body die should not squeeze the neck to that degree but I am not complaining...it works out perfect without too much runout. Subsequent reloadings will be with the Lee collet neck die until forced to use the body die.

[Ratbuster]

Originally Posted by ramos

The collet die may be tolerant of differing neck thicknesses but, should the shooter not desire consistent thickness? I know I do.

Ramos...

As far as desiring consistent neck thickness that only applies if you neck turn unless you want to measure and throw away brass that falls outside of a particular range. For my Vartarg I neck turned because I had to... Lapua brass necks are too thick for my .232 neck chamber. For my 20 Practical I use primarily LC brass which I am not neck turning as I am shooting big volume. Lake City brass neck thickness varies from .011 to .014 although a large percentage is around .012.

When using a bushing die with varying neck thickness you end up with varying neck tensions.

[ramos]

Not sure I understand everything you are doing (forming, sizing, both?). My response has been in regards to the 20VT, forming from 5.56/.223 and sizing in general after fire-forming. When forming, the Type-S die needs to support the entire case, that means a FL die with guts removed. When you are ready to add bushings for increased neck reduction, do NOT tighten the retainer down hard on the bushing. Tighten the retainer until it bottoms out on the bushing and then back it out just a tiny bit. This will allow the bushing to self align with the case. Total runout should easily be less than 0.005". Again, this is while forming and, with a FULL LENGTH Type-S die.

Quote: "When using a bushing die with varying neck thickness you end up with varying neck tensions. "

With varying neck thickness, the neck tension will vary regardless of brand or type of sizing die. The extra brass is there, period. You can shove it to the inside with a standard die or with a bushing in a bushing die. You can shove it back to the outside with an expander ball, or somewhat with a bullet. Bottom line, the uneven tension is there and it will release the bullet accordingly. Speaking in absolutes here, of course.

As many here know, I really struggle putting things like this in print. At least in a sensical manner. If anyone can make sense of my post and feels compelled to word it better, PLEASE do so.

[Ratbuster]

Ramos,

I am not making Vartarg brass from LC 223. For both the VT and 20P I was getting runout simply from the necking down process from 22 to 20 cal. Both cartridges exhibited the problem with two different Redding neck bushing dies. I am well aware of needing to float the bushing. I also know you are supposed to put the stamped number facing down, at least with the Redding die. I was getting around .004 to .005 runout which was not acceptable to me.

With a Lee collet die the neck is sized with a floating mandrel where the brass is squeezed onto with a collet so variations in neck thickness are pushed to the outside of the brass instead of the inside like other dies, thus you end up with a more consistent inner diameter of the neck and neck tension. It makes necks more concentric. You eliminate lubing and the resulting cleanup afterwards too.

When Lee's patent expires on the collet die I imagine you will see all the die manufacturers jump on the collet bandwagon.

[kenbro]

Irrespective of inside diameter, thicker necks walls provide more tension than thinner necks.
Ken.

[ramos]

Ratbuster, what you are doing seems to be working for you. So, by all means, carry on and have a nice day.


Ken, I agree and, an inconsistent neck thickness on an individual case results in 'off-axis' tension.

OCD tends to ebb and flow. I seem to be experiencing a major flood tide at the moment!