| Least explosive 17 cal bullet???? |  | ||
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Posted by: Drifter 11/24/2001, 02:14:17 |
I am looking for a 17 cal bullet that will hold together on fox without unzipping them . I hit one today with a 25 g starke (2 actually)out of my 17 rem and man o man do I have some sewing to do. They are great in my 17m4 with mild loads but in the rem they are too destructive. I have hornady hp's and v- max but I don't think I'll try them . any suggestions? match bullet, or reduced loads maby.
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| Re: Least explosive 17 cal bullet???? -- Drifter | Top of thread | Archive | |
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Posted by: Hope Carleton 11/24/2001, 04:11:22 |
Drifter,
Sorry to hear of your experience with the Starke bullet, the Starkes shoot so well in my .17's and I am planning to use them this season. What type of damage did you have on the fur? was it the exit wound or a "splash entrance" that caused the damage? My experience with the 25 gr Starke on my first coyote was no "exit" and the bullet performed properly. I was using a mild load in a .17 Rem (3850 fps), the distance was about a 100 yards and the bullet encountered no large bone. What speed you are pushing the bullets (both .17 rem and Mach IV)? I do know that there are some folks using the Berger bullets (match,not MEF) and claim to be getting good performance on fur, maybe someone with experience with this bullet will "reply". Sorry to have more questions than answers ... I really hate to have to change bullets this late in the game! |
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Posted by: Jody Henkle ® 11/24/2001, 20:41:55 Author Profile |
I have also been looking for a less explosive bullet. Everything I shoot gets ripped in half. I have considered trying to seat a bullet backwards possibly a boat tail, to get a FMJ effect. (I would think the BT would help the bullet aline to the throat with less pressure as it jumps.) I haven't got around to try it yet, has anyone else ventured down this path? Also at last years SHOT Show Aguila announce their 17RF based on a 22RF. The cartridges they had on display were 20gr. FMJ. I ordered a full case of shells, hoping to pull the bullets for other 17 loads (17ccm, 17 rem, 17 ppc).......... Well, I'm still waiting on that shipment. It sounds like the 17 RF Mag from Hornaday will hit the market first..... May be someone with some pull could beg a bullet maker to manufacture a FMJ. Mark me down for a couple K of them. While were at it I'd take a 30gr ballistic tip as well. That's ALL I want for Christmas.........jh |
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| Copper solids | | ||
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Posted by: jim saubier 11/24/2001, 21:45:49 |
I actually found a source for copper solids. They are pricey however, since they have to be machined individually. Fred Smith from Bullberry has done some pretty neat testing with them including shooting a 55 gallon drum full of water, a wild boar, and some other stuff. I have a few of the solids, but not enough to mess with. As far as the Starkes, I am surprised at your experience. At a max load of 4320, I shot one fox so far this year and had no exit. The fox simply folded at the impact without blinking. It was a fair sized fox. I still plan on using the Starkes this year and will report any ill affects that I experience. I saw a fox this morning while deer hunting, but I had my .300 whisper handgun and the LER scope couldn't gather enough light to get a shot at him in the early morning. I did however manage to shoot a coon shortly after the fox went through. Unzipped him like you wouldn't believe with the zipper.
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Posted by: Jody Henkle ® 11/24/2001, 22:19:05 Author Profile |
Jim, what is the weight and lenght of the solids? Scare me with a price.....jh |
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| I wish | | ||
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Posted by: Drifter 11/25/2001, 01:11:28 |
Someone would make som good ones for us fur hunters. A lil bitty sierra game king, soft point boat tail. Or a 25 g partition, or something that would hold together and punch through.not a solid, but not a violent exploder either. I could deal with two little holes, even a half inch exit, but the fox I shot yesterday will look like frankinfox with all the stitches he will have.
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Posted by: Al Nyhus ® 11/25/2001, 08:09:16 Author Profile |
I spoke with Rich Macholtz from Sierra about this last July. He said that in order for the production of a bullet to be profitable for Sierra, they have to be able to sell 250,000 of that one particular buulet per year. He stated that Sierra had researched this market, and didn't feel the numbers were there to commit to the production of such a bullet. Now, when you consider that the 250,000 number is for each weight of bullet in a particular caliber, I can understand why a large company like Sierra wouldn't be interested in doing this. -Al.
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| Exactly why we all need | | ||
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Posted by: jim saubier 11/25/2001, 10:20:51 |
to patronize companies like Hornady for going the extra mile to support the small caliber and other specialized shooting interests. Now that they are introducing the .17 Rimfire as well, my hat is off to them. I choose to use Hornady bullets in other calibers as well just to support them. V-maxes in the .22 calibers, etc. Just yesterday, I used their single shot pistol bullets in .30 caliber to take my first 2 deer with a handgun. Bullets performed flawlessly, and I chose to use Hornady bullets over others because I have a loyalty to them for their support of the small calibers. As far as bullet manufacturing companies, Hornady gets the business from me whenever possible. Now this doesn't include custom bullet makers, I certainly have learned to appreciate the quality of custom bullets as well. |
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Posted by: jim saubier 11/25/2001, 07:17:37 |
I think that they are 25 grains which makes them a little longer than a typical 25 grain bullet because copper is lighter than the lead. They are somewhere near $50/100. I have not shot any, but have been told that it is imperative to shoot milder loads due to the harder bullet. |
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Posted by: Oscar ® 11/25/2001, 19:56:28 Author Profile |
I liked the old Rem. Power-Lokt. Seldom more than a nickle sized exit hole. That being said, when you're moving as fast as a .17 and you hit bone, bad things are going to happen. |
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| A couple of thoughts about Seventeen bullets.... | | ||
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Posted by: Clint Starke ® 11/27/2001, 23:46:02 Author Profile |
First of all, let me state up front I am not a .17 shooter. Maybe some day, but not at the moment. This has more to do with jackets, construction and some thoughts on why .17 bullets are strange little animals. An average .224 bullet jacket measures about .013" right at the mouth, while a .17 will mic .009". Granted, 4 thou doesn't look like a lot on paper, but in a bullet that's almost a full third less metal. That, fellow shooters, is a lot, and one of the reasons .17's can be so unpredictable. Another issue is weight and it's relationship to energy. Consider a 25 grain. Even at 4,000 FPS and up, energy is very low, in comparison to say a .224/50. A .17 is going to lose enery very quickly, there's just not a lot of weight there to keep it moving. We could talk about sectional density, frontal area, and a few other topics, but frankly in .17's those points are moot. So what we have is a very fast moving projectile with an fragile exterior that loses it's punch very fast. Now lets say we sneak this bullet between the ribs of a fox or yote and hit the heart. A heart is a pretty substantial chunk of anatomy, even in a fox, and will soak up a lot of enery. Chances of a large exit wound, if any, are greatly lessened. Most of the time. Run that same bullet through the ribs and hit the lungs, different story. Lungs are mostly air and blood, and will absorb most of the bullets energy. But just like a water jug, a lot of hydraulic action is taking place. A large cavitaion wound occurs, and as the bullet, or what's left of it exits the off side, all that hydraulic motion follows the wound channel, and bingo, big hole. Shots in the gut area react pretty much the same. Again, most of the time. As far as head shots go, it's the same as shooting a grapefuit with a hard skin. The bullet is going to blow up and the resulting hydraulic action really moves things around. You guys know what I mean, no need for graphic detail. Hit a rib, the corner of a shoulder, a heavy tendon, large muscle, etc., and everything changes. Very, very quickly. The bottom line guys, is .17 bullets are very unpredictable, far more so than .224's or 6mm's. They just don't have the weight (energy) and substance (jackets) to react in the same manner each time in any critter larger than a P. dog. Which is why sometimes the critter will drop in it's tracks with one little hole, or one little hole and one big one, or will run for a 100 yards. From my perspective, there's little a bulletmaker can do to control the extreme performance spread, at least in the realm of jacketed bullets. Closing the points up tight might help a smidgen, but then we run the risk of getting a FMJ flavor, and speaking as one who has shot fox with FMJ's, this is not good. Core bonding has proven to work well in .22 and .24 bullets for saving pelts, and would probably work in .17's, but the cost would be prohibitive. The best solution at hand seems to be a heavy (30 or more grs.) bullet in a faster twist barrel. Slowing the velocity down also may have some benefits. Wish I had the final answer, but if I said that I'd be a liar. If any of you have an input, please get in touch with me. Field reports and shooter comments are always welcome. Jim, thanks for the space and the banner. Much appreciated. Clint.
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Posted by: Hope Carleton 11/28/2001, 05:06:19 |
Clint,
Thanks for giving us .17 shooters another bullet to choose from. I can remember not that long ago when talking about "choice" concerning a .17 bullet a shooter had one bullet maker and one bullet to pick from....not a lot of choice. I am shooting your 25 grain offering in a Mach IV and a couple of .17 Remington's and will say that the accuracy has been outstanding in every rifle,I intend to use this bullet on fur this season. My experience with the .17 on fur is limited but with the .22 centerfires I can say that I feel that "bullet placement" is a big part in minimizing pelt damage. Todd and Al Nyhus told me of their use of the 40 gr BT on fur and I used this bullet late last season and can say it is a good choice on coyote but you must stay away from the "point of the shoulder" or you would have problems. I used this bullet at 3650 fps and never shot much further than 200 yards. I am sure that used at different velocities and different ranges would vary the results. I guess to thank you for your reply and your fine product. |
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Posted by: jim saubier 11/28/2001, 20:41:25 |
Your insight is invaluable. I have never known what the differnces in the jacket thickness was between the .17's and the .22's. You are right, 4 thousandths is a bunch and I can see what you are talking about. I shot a woodchuck earlier this year with my .17 Remington and hit center mass right behind the shoulder and had a huge exit wound. With the same load, shot a fox and hit just behind the shoulder and had no exit. The woodchuck seemed to have a larger body mass than the fox, but I still got an exit. I use your 25 grain Starkes in my .17 Remingtons at a max load and am pushing 4,000 fps. The most important thing about these bullets, no matter what construction, is that you can hit what your are aiming at and that is exactly why I use the Starkes. Now I hope to do exactly like you say and use the 30 grain Starkes in my .17 Remingtons and my Javelina that is being built. The Javelina reamer that I made was designed for a 30 grain bullet but will be able to use the 25's as well. I think that the 30 grain bullet at 3800 - 3900 fps will be a great. Time will tell. Thanks for the information. |
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Posted by: Al Nyhus ® 11/30/2001, 00:05:17 Author Profile |
Hi Clint. The most consistent performing .17 bullet I've ever used was the Remington factory 25gr. hollow point. This bullet is no longer made, as Rem. has gone to using the Hornady 25gr. bullet in their factory ammo. The Remington "old" factory bullet was actually a copper plated lead core bullet, rather than a jacketed lead core. The expansion was consistent and they were as accurate as the Hornady 25gr. hollow point. We've also used the Berger 25gr. match bullets, the Hornady 25gr. hollow point, the Hammett 25 gr. bullets, and recently the Hornady 20gr. VMax. All will do the job and give reasonable pelt damage on a fox....MOST of the time. I believe that if you shoot a .17 on fox, you need to accept the fact that damage will occur from time to time. Looking foward to trying some of your bullets in the near future. -Al. |
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Posted by: russ lucas ® 12/19/2001, 22:05:17 Author Profile |
Clint: I agree with everything you have just stated. You can
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